Universal reconciliation: a new approach by a Russian Orthodox bishop?

[Mina Mounir]

Hello, I've read this statement of Bishop Hilarion of Vienna :

Vatican, April 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_7), 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008), Russian Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox) Bishop Hilarion of Vienna in his presentation at the First World Apostolic Congress of Divine Mercy, argued that God's mercy is so great that He does not condemn sinners to everlasting punishment. The Orthodox understanding of hell, Bishop Hilarion said, corresponds roughly to the Catholic notion of purgatory.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation#cite_note-CWN_2008-04-08-11)

here's the link :
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=57674

Metropolitan George (Khodr) of Mount Lebanon held the same statement in an article he published in a lebanese news paper .
and I think Archbishop Kallistos Ware referred to this as a " hope " .

how do we see this approach ?

[Eric Peterson]

I think this approach is confused and possibly misguided. Elder Cleopa, in his book "The Truth of our Faith," gives the Orthodox teaching of hell.

[Ryan]

Hello, I've read this statement of Bishop Hilarion of Vienna :

here's the link :
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=57674

Metropolitan George (Khodr) of Mount Lebanon held the same statement in an article he published in a lebanese news paper .
and I think Archbishop Kallistos Ware referred to this as a " hope " .

how do we see this approach ?

Bishop Hilarion may have been misunderstood... the article doesn't contain his actual words, just the Roman Catholic writer's understanding of them. I guess we'd have to see the actual text of His Grace's presentation. I think it makes sense to hope for universal salvation but to flat out state that Hell is temporary is a little too bold I think.

[Nicolaj]

Archbishop Hilarion explained the position of the russian orthodox church very well and clear in his book about the Mystery of Faith, I guess it is also so named in English, and that is not his position here!

The wish thinking of the not very well listening RC writer did the rest.

Archbishop Hilarion is a true child of the Church.

Christos Voskrese! Nicolaj, a child of Archbishop Hilarion

[Owen Jones]

It seems to me that the starting point for Orthodox speculation on Hell ought to begin with the fundamental assertion or recognition of Orthodoxy which I believe is standard and universal belief for all Orthodox, which is that God, in His essence, is unknowable. Proceeding from there, we do not say that we cannot know anything about anything, but at the very least, there are things about the afterlife that we just cannot know, and when we speculate on heaven and hell, we do with a certain degree of intellectual humility.

[Mourad Mankarios]

I think the quote here is not too far off and should not be confused with a blatant accession to universal salvation as no speculation as to the longevity of hell is provided. What seems to be intimated rather is the stark contrast between Western and Eastern notions of hell. While Western notions of hell often place a great deal of stress on the appeasement of divine wrath and retribution through the endless punishment of sinners in contrast Eastern notions of hell, in a very similar manner to the Latin understanding of purgatory, will focus rather on the pedagogical nature of hell.

[Kosta]

This is NOT the belief of Bishop Hillarion. This is an example of how the media or people with a specific agenda twist things around.

Bishop Hilarion presented a study on St Isaac the Syrian in whose spiritual writings there develops an idea of universal salvation. St. Isaac basically advances the ideas of Theodore of Mopuestia who held to a similar belief as that of Origen with some differences.

Bishop Hillarion made it perfectly clear that the belief of universal salvation is NOT a belief of the Orthodox Church. He also made it clear that he is presenting St. Isaac's understanding and not his own.

Here is the text, which is simply a small part of a larger presenation of the theology of St Isaac The Syrian:

http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_6_10

[Andreas Moran]

My wife knew Archbishop Hilarion personally very well for years (since before he became a bishop) before she left Russia, and is sure he would never say anything contrary to Orthodox Tradition.

[Evan]

I think the quote here is not too far off and should not be confused with a blatant accession to universal salvation as no speculation as to the longevity of hell is provided. What seems to be intimated rather is the stark contrast between Western and Eastern notions of hell. While Western notions of hell often place a great deal of stress on the appeasement of divine wrath and retribution through the endless punishment of sinners in contrast Eastern notions of hell, in a very similar manner to the Latin understanding of purgatory, will focus rather on the pedagogical nature of hell.


Question: If Hell is eternal, how can the chastisement that takes place be in any way pedagogical?

I understand the problem with saying that the punishment meted out in Hell is a way of "appeasing" divine wrath, and to the extent that Catholicism characterizes Hell in this way, I agree that this is not what the Fathers teach. But just as the consequences, for Adam, of eating the apple were not a "punishment" from God but simply the irreversible result of his disobedience, can we not say the same thing about the consequences, in the afterlife, of having lived out one's days in separation from God-- that Hell is the irreversible consequence of such separation?

[Eric Peterson]

Here's another way to look at hell.

From Elder Cleopa's excellent book "The Truth of our Faith," Chapter 17 "On the Eternal Torments of Hell."

"God offers eternal joy to the righteous, who struggled for a time to carry out good works here on earth, but as a just and righteous God, He also chastises eternally the ungodly that transgressed in this temporal life. Why is it so? Because the wounds incurred from sin that are not healed in this life through the appropriate repentance will remain infected eternally in the presence of God."

And, from "Nihilism," by Fr. Seraphim Rose: "Hell is the love of God rejected...But God loves even such men too much to allow them simply to 'forget' Him and 'pass away'...out of His presence which alone is life to men; He offers, even to those in Hell, His Love, which is torment to those who have not prepared themselves in this life to receive it."

And the following is my opinion and commentary, which may or may not be mistaken.

And what is this preparation? Repentance. Faith. Very small things on our part in that they do not require money or ascetic exertion. We give a tiny drop to God, as it were, and He gives us the whole ocean of His good gifts forever. He Who hates nothing which He has made does not, in the end, annihilate anything that He has made. Even the most evil person will receive what He has promised to all through the death and resurrection of His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ--the resurrection of the body and its inseparable and immortal reunion with the soul. This resurrection at the last day will happen for all people so that they might experience the fullness of God's love--even those who have ultimately rejected His love. They will experience it, too, because of God's kindness and faithfulness, fulfilling His promises even to those who mocked them and did not believe in Him.

Thus, in the end, even the eternal punishment is a manifestation of God's love and mercy, for He pours out the same upon the righeous and the unrighteous, upon the repentant and the unrepentant. Those who repented and accepted His gifts experience His love as delight, rest, warmth, refreshment, etc. Those who refused to repent and did not accept His gifts experience His love as torments because then they can no longer ignore their conscience, which will incessantly accuse them for their evils. They will not be able to turn away from God anymore, and they will see Him Whom they rejected and know His great love for them, but the knowledge of their rejection of such great love will burn them because their time for repenting, for healing, and for embracing His love has passed forever.

God loves every person, and this continues for eternity. Everyone feels the love. How we will feel it depends on us. If we reject God's love in this life, we make a choice for eternal punishment--for by the mercy of God, eternity is the unmitigated experience of God's love. Of course, God wants everyone to accept His love, but He made us free to choose, giving us this life to make that choice. (In this life, too, everyone experiences God's love and providence. Some reject it here, too, and live in a kind of hell of suffering. Others embrace it here and live as if already in Paradise.)

If God destroyed someone because He didn't want them to suffer, that would mean that He would also be cutting them off from His love and going back on His promises of eternal life. If God destroyed a person, completely obliterated him, just so he wouldn't suffer, He would be a very terrible God indeed. Who would love such a being that kills in the name of mercy? It would not be mercy at all, really.

So, in that all experience the fulfillment of the promises of God and the unmitigated experience of God's love in eternity, we can say with several of the saints, whereever we find ourselves, in blessednss or in torment, glory to God for all things.

In the end, no one will be able to boast in themselves or to make excuses for themselves. Neither will the devil have a right to complain against God.

God is just and merciful in all that He has done, is doing, and will do for us. The blame is rather with us for our sins. But, then, let us repent of them and God will forgive us and grant us again the opportunity to embrace His love. And so again and again until the hour God appoints for our eternal reunion with Him.

[Evan]

Here's another way to look at hell.

From Elder Cleopa's excellent book "The Truth of our Faith," Chapter 17 "On the Eternal Torments of Hell."

"God offers eternal joy to the righteous, who struggled for a time to carry out good works here on earth, but as a just and righteous God, He also chastises eternally the ungodly that transgressed in this temporal life. Why is it so? Because the wounds incurred from sin that are not healed in this life through the appropriate repentance will remain infected eternally in the presence of God."

And, from "Nihilism," by Fr. Seraphim Rose: "Hell is the love of God rejected...But God loves even such men too much to allow them simply to 'forget' Him and 'pass away'...out of His presence which alone is life to men; He offers, even to those in Hell, His Love, which is torment to those who have not prepared themselves in this life to receive it."

And the following is my opinion and commentary, which may or may not be mistaken.

And what is this preparation? Repentance. Faith. Very small things on our part in that they do not require money or ascetic exertion. We give a tiny drop to God, as it were, and He gives us the whole ocean of His good gifts forever. He Who hates nothing which He has made does not, in the end, annihilate anything that He has made. Even the most evil person will receive what He has promised to all through the death and resurrection of His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ--the resurrection of the body and its inseparable and immortal reunion with the soul. This resurrection at the last day will happen for all people so that they might experience the fullness of God's love--even those who have ultimately rejected His love. They will experience it, too, because of God's kindness and faithfulness, fulfilling His promises even to those who mocked them and did not believe in Him.

Thus, in the end, even the eternal punishment is a manifestation of God's love and mercy, for He pours out the same upon the righeous and the unrighteous, upon the repentant and the unrepentant. Those who repented and accepted His gifts experience His love as delight, rest, warmth, refreshment, etc. Those who refused to repent and did not accept His gifts experience His love as torments because then they can no longer ignore their conscience, which will incessantly accuse them for their evils. They will not be able to turn away from God anymore, and they will see Him Whom they rejected and know His great love for them, but the knowledge of their rejection of such great love will burn them because their time for repenting, for healing, and for embracing His love has passed forever.

God loves every person, and this continues for eternity. Everyone feels the love. How we will feel it depends on us. If we reject God's love in this life, we make a choice for eternal punishment--for by the mercy of God, eternity is the unmitigated experience of God's love. Of course, God wants everyone to accept His love, but He made us free to choose, giving us this life to make that choice. (In this life, too, everyone experiences God's love and providence. Some reject it here, too, and live in a kind of hell of suffering. Others embrace it here and live as if already in Paradise.)

If God destroyed someone because He didn't want them to suffer, that would mean that He would also be cutting them off from His love and going back on His promises of eternal life. If God destroyed a person, completely obliterated him, just so he wouldn't suffer, He would be a very terrible God indeed. Who would love such a being that kills in the name of mercy? It would not be mercy at all, really.

So, in that all experience the fulfillment of the promises of God and the unmitigated experience of God's love in eternity, we can say with several of the saints, whereever we find ourselves, in blessednss or in torment, glory to God for all things.

In the end, no one will be able to boast in themselves or to make excuses for themselves. Neither will the devil have a right to complain against God.

God is just and merciful in all that He has done, is doing, and will do for us. The blame is rather with us for our sins. But, then, let us repent of them and God will forgive us and grant us again the opportunity to embrace His love. And so again and again until the hour God appoints for our eternal reunion with Him.

Such is my understanding. How well you put this! One of the deepest problems affecting Western Christianity as I see it is the schizophrenic notion that God is all love... unless you make Him mad, at which point He becomes a cruel tyrant. But we know that in Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. God cannot be both love and hate; we do not "change" Him. Rather, it is we who must change. God became man, that we might become gods. Perhaps in Hell, we will be unable to escape the realization of what we have missed. We are loved, but we cannot love in return, and therein lies the pain.

[Theophrastus]

As of 7 August, 2009, no one has been eternally damned, so a prayer for the salvation of all is not an un-Christian thing to do.

[Eric Peterson]

As of 7 August, 2009, no one has been eternally damned, so a prayer for the salvation of all is not an un-Christian thing to do.

I don't think anyone was making the assertion that it was.

[Theophrastus]

I don't think anyone was making the assertion that it was.

Evan hinted at it:


I understand the problem with saying that the punishment meted out in Hell is a way of "appeasing" divine wrath, and to the extent that Catholicism characterizes Hell in this way, I agree that this is not what the Fathers teach. But just as the consequences, for Adam, of eating the apple were not a "punishment" from God but simply the irreversible result of his disobedience, can we not say the same thing about the consequences, in the afterlife, of having lived out one's days in separation from God-- that Hell is the irreversible consequence of such separation?

My suggestion was that, since eternal damnation has not yet been decided, eternal damnation need not necessarily be anyone's "irreversible" fate.

[Evan]

I believe that there is ample support in Scripture and in the writings of the Fathers for the proposition that those who choose to reject God's love in this life will condemn themselves to eternal torment. That is quite different from saying that it is sinful to pray for the salvation of all (especially since, apart from the saints, we do not know the fate of those who have died). I have done no such thing.

Please try to be more charitable.

From St. Gregory Palamas' letter "To the Most Reverend Nun Xenia" (trans. Met. Kallistos Ware et. al):

What, then, is this profitless, unconsoling and endless grief experienced in hell? It is the grief stirred up in those who have sinned against God when they become aware of their offenses. There, in hell, convicted of their sins, stripped of all hope of salvation or of any improvement in thier condition, they feel yet greater anguish and grief because of the unsought reproof of their conscience. And this itself, and the everlasting nature of their grief, gives rise to yet another form of grief, and to another dreadful darkness, to unbearable heat and a helpless abyss of despondency.

[Mourad Mankarios]

I think an important component of this discussion is the realisation that in the Orthodox praxis and phronema hell is not static and the prayers of the faithful are profitable for even those who are in hell. I suppose the unrevealed mystery is what all of this leads to or what the conclusion of all of this is.

[Eric Peterson]

It depends on what you mean by hell. What people experience now is not static or fixed, but punishment after the Last Judgment is eternal.

[Mina Mounir]

i think the using of term like " eternal " suggests that there's a time factor in the eschatological life. I think there's no " longer" period in hell than the supposed " purgatory " since the factor of time doesn't exist...

[Eric Peterson]

Would you prefer the term "unending?" "Eternal" is the term used by the Lord in Matthew 25.

[Mina Mounir]

it is not the matter of "right" and wrong ... it is - in my opinion - just symbolic. I think even salvation is also beyond time ... I don't think that adam was the one who waited the longest period in hell till jesus came in 33 AD and freed him ! I believe that time is a dimension in our world - which fits with Einstein's relativitiy ;) - but not in the other world .. and the term " eternity " can be symbolic , referring to the unchangeable fate.
all the eschatological matters are timeless in my opinion...