Monasteries in America

[J. K. Amra]

I might be speaking through ignorance here, not having visited any monasteries and being really young, but does it seem that Orthodox monasteries in America have 'above average' conditions of comfort, in comparison to monasteries in Orthodox countries like Serbia or Russia, and if one truly wishes to live a monastic life of prayer, poverty, asceticism, and obedience, is America a good country on the subject of poverty? It would seem that poverty abides in monasteries that are not American, but then again, this is coming from someone who has not visited a single monastery, be it in America or another country.

And would it somehow be pseudo monasticism, because monasticism is all about the life of struggle, and according to the elders sanctification can only come through suffering, and if there is no suffering, sanctification will not come. And who can really struggle when you have all the appliances that you need to live the life of comfort, but just refuse to use them until a certain point.


Thanks.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I might be speaking through ignorance here, not having visited any monasteries and being really young, but does it seem that Orthodox monasteries in America have 'above average' conditions of comfort, in comparison to monasteries in Orthodox countries like Serbia or Russia, and if one truly wishes to live a monastic life of prayer, poverty, asceticism, and obedience, is America a good country on the subject of poverty? It would seem that poverty abides in monasteries that are not American, but then again, this is coming from someone who has not visited a single monastery, be it in America or another country.

And would it somehow be pseudo monasticism, because monasticism is all about the life of struggle, and according to the elders sanctification can only come through suffering, and if there is no suffering, sanctification will not come. And who can really struggle when you have all the appliances that you need to live the life of comfort, but just refuse to use them until a certain point.


Thanks.

I hope you can forgive me for saying this, but it really is best not to speak from or in ignorance. You really do have no idea what you are talking about. St. Herman's Monastery in Platina, CA has no running water or electricity. There are many monasteries in America with various levels of phyiscal "asceticism". I would say most monasteries truely have minimal "comforts".

If a monastic cannot receive santicification, what hope then do we have who are not monastics? And it is not "only" through suffering. It is certainly one way, a very important way, but it is not the only way. Certainly one who has never known suffering may never know Christ, but who among us has never suffered? There are many kinds of suffering and physical discomfort is only one such.

At any rate, it is certainly best not to make judgements or claims about "pseudo-monasticism" until you have seen it for yourself, talked with a monastic yourself, or at least heard testimony from those who have. Visit a monastery, talk with a monastic, then ignorant comments can be avoided.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain,
Herman the Pooh

[Herman Blaydoe]

I have not been personally to each and every monastery, but the ones I am personally acquainted with do not have "above average levels of comfort". And unlike some Catholic monasteries I am aware of, which seem more like luxury resorts with a "spiritual" theme, visitors to Orthodox monasteries are not entertained or "catered to". They are expected to clean up after themselves, and participate in the life of the monastery, attending the services and often working around the monastery itself, in the kitchen, or cleaning the grounds, or perhaps helping to build the chapel (many monasteries are still relatively new and the facilities are still under construction). Well the guest house at St. Anthony is quite nice, but again, I doubt the monastic cells are similarly fitted out, since the monasteries of Fr. Ephraim are modelled closely on the monastic traditions of Mt. Athos.

Many monasteries in the US began with "starter monks", that is monastics from older, established monasteries in Mt. Athos, Serbia, Romania, Russia and Greece, to teach and provide continuity of the ancient traditions of Orthodox monasticism. So I really do not understand where the comment that American monasteries are somehow "pseudo-monasticism" is coming from, but I am more than happy to inform you that for many, if not most, Orthodox monasteries, this is simply not the case.

Herman

[Father David Moser]

The last monastery I went to, I had to stay in a tent. The monks have more permanent cells - i.e. one 8x10 room (basically a garden shed) with no water. There are 4 larger, more "elaborate" cells, which have a reception room and bathroom. Those are reserved for the abbot, the economos and other senior monks (one is permanently set aside for visiting hierarchs). Aside from these larger cells, the only other building on the monastery grounds that has water is the trapeza (unless you count the pumphouse). It is not like living in a hermitage carved out of a cave in a cliff on the side of Mt Athos - but it is not full of "comfort" either. Another monastery I have visited recently is much more "established" in that it has a large dormlike residence for the monastics. There are "guest quarters" there for visiting clergy which are much more well appointed than the monastic cells in that the priest's quarters have an on-suite powder room (the communal showers are down the hall). The cell itself has a bed, a desk, a chest-of-drawers and an icon - not really "luxury" by any account.

Perhaps one of the misconceptions that cause some confusion here is that monasticism is necessarily about physcial deprivation and suffering. Not so. (in fact such a focus could lead to the errors of gnosticism in considering the flesh evil and a prison for the spirit which is good and must be freed from its prison) Monasticism is living a life dedicated primarily to the service of God - whatever that entails. This means prayer (public and private) and fasting are the rule and that all things are done simply and in moderation. However, it does not mean that the monks are required to incur intentional suffering. Monks work hard and are therefore fed according to their needs - those that labor physically eat more than those who do not (because that is their need). They wear simple, traditional, appropriate clothing - which means overalls for working in the field, podriasniks when otherwise occupied and riassas in the Church. It is not life without "comforts" - rather it is life without excess. It is life focused on the spiritual necessities rather than on the physical necessities. Monastics in monasteries have what they need, but little else. If their needs include electricity, indoor plumbing, and even the internet, then so be it - but these are not luxuries or comforts, but rather tools to save time and energy to pursue the true calling of spiritual development. The spiritual father and/or abbot (not necessarily the same person) of the monastery is the one who determines what is needed and what is detrimental to the life and spiritual development of the monk and we who are outside should not be quick to judge his decisions.


Fr David Moser

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Herman, Father David, Mr Amra and others,

I've appreciated the most recent reflections in this thread.

To echo a note heard in Fr David's post, there is a misconception that the fulness of ascetical struggle resides in the austerity of surroundings. It does not. True asceticism is the life of self-offering to Christ, in which various things have a part. It is possible to extremely 'ascetic' in a purely outward sense (no water, no comfort, etc.), without being at all ascetic on a deeper level; similarly, it is possible to be a great ascetic amongst all the trappings of the world. To each as God blesses.

But on the second point, the simple observation is I think quite wrong. I have visited monasteries in America that are as austere, in that physical sense, as any I have seen in the 'old world'. And I have been to monasteries in the old centres that have surroundings almost hotel-like.

Let us be gentle in our observations!

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Father David Moser]

The cell itself has a bed, a desk, a chest-of-drawers and an icon - not really "luxury" by any account.

I should have mentioned that the bed was extremely hard and lumpy - I would have been better to sleep on a board.

Fr David

[Ryan]

Some monasteries might be comfier than others. Below is a photo from a cell at St. Tikhon's monastery. Not a hotel room, but it does look fairly comfy. Of course, the bed isn't in the picture... it could be a pile of hay.

http://sttikhonsmonastery.org/images/photos/monastery_tour/DSC_0245.JPG

[J. K. Amra]

Some monasteries might be comfier than others. Below is a photo from a cell at St. Tikhon's monastery. Not a hotel room, but it does look fairly comfy. Of course, the bed isn't in the picture... it could be a pile of hay.

http://sttikhonsmonastery.org/images/photos/monastery_tour/DSC_0245.JPG

That doesn't look like a hotel room, and I never said it did, but that does look fairly comfy, in fact this resembles my room very much, and I do not see poverty in this picture. Thanks for the pic.

[Ryan]

Please don't take the St. Tikhon image as representative of the typical American cell... it may not even be the typical St. Tikhon's cell. At any rate, it doesn't tell us much about the quality of the monk's asceticism, which in any case would doubtless put me to shame.

[Cyprian (Humphrey)]

Hmmm... Note the electrical heater in front of the desk, which suggests to me that this monastery (like all I've ever seen) either does not have central heating (or at least does not run it due to the costliness of it). If it does not have central heating, it's highly unlikely to have (or run) air conditioning. Living without central heating in cold weather, and without air conditioning in hot weather is not terribly luxurious.

What exact hedonistic things are you seeing here? Electric lights? Glass in the windows? Clean carpets? *gasp* Chairs?

Asceticism is about self denial and self control. Not about living in adversity. There is a difference.

But, if you're so inclined, someone has already mentioned St Herman's Monastery in Platina CA. You might find them to your liking. They're great guys. Living in the conditions they do isn't my cup of tea, but hey...

[Father David Moser]

Some monasteries might be comfier than others. Below is a photo from a cell at St. Tikhon's monastery. Not a hotel room, but it does look fairly comfy. Of course, the bed isn't in the picture... it could be a pile of hay.

Just an observation - meant as neither a defense or criticism. The cell in question must belong to one of the more senior monks and certainly to a monk who has some extended level of responsibility. That based on the stole hanging by the icons. This is the cell of an hieromonk. You may well find that such monks are afforded a few more "creature comforts" than others due to the increased spiritual burden that they bear (not to mention the fact that they also are generally in positions of administrative responsibility within the monastery.)

Fr David Moser

[J. K. Amra]

Hmmm... Note the electrical heater in front of the desk, which suggests to me that this monastery (like all I've ever seen) either does not have central heating (or at least does not run it due to the costliness of it). If it does not have central heating, it's highly unlikely to have (or run) air conditioning. Living without central heating in cold weather, and without air conditioning in hot weather is not terribly luxurious.

What exact hedonistic things are you seeing here? Electric lights? Glass in the windows? Clean carpets? *gasp* Chairs?

Asceticism is about self denial and self control. Not about living in adversity. There is a difference

--------------
"one cannot fully achieve sanctification when he/she is living with all the comforts of the modern life, with all the hedonism that it promotes and the hypocrisy that abides in the hearts of those who live in the modern world, among whom I am at this point in time."
--------------



I was speaking about the 'modern world', and never did I mention terrible 'luxury' in monasteries, do not exaggerate what I say or put words into my mouth. Central heating isn't considered luxurious, but the fact is that I do not have it either. And I will check out the monastery in Platina CA in the coming couple of years.

And according to you asceticism is not about living in adversity? Then what is it about? Self denial and self control? Self denial and self control would eventually lead to adversity. e.g. Hermits

[Father David Moser]

And according to you asceticism is not about living in adversity? Then what is it about? Self denial and self control? Self denial and self control would eventually lead to adversity. e.g. Hermits

You yourself stated that you had never visited a monastery and thus do not really know monasticism. Perhaps before you make conclusions about what monasticism is and isn't you should spend some time in monasteries living the life of the monastery along with the brotherhood. Then, I think you will be in a better position to speak about what the monastic life is and is not.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

There are so many sides to this issue.

First, we have emperors and nobles from Byzantium who lived in the midst of luxuries and ended up becoming saints, often many of them were wearing uncomfortable things beneath their luxurious garments... so as the Fathers say do not believe what you hear and believe only half of what you see.

Second, harsh environment is not the sole condition to go to Heaven. By this logic all people who lived or live in harsh condition are saved despite the condition of their soul. As the lives of the saints show there are many saints from all strata of life that achieved theosis not because of the conditions surrounding them.

Third, one of the purposes of monasteries is to offer hospitality to pilgrims. So even if we see something more than we would like it is for being more hospitable. In the monasteries of Geronda Ephraim here in USA I have been, the guest rooms have just beds (several in one large room) and a table (or nightstand) with icon and lamp for reading and icons on the walls. We looked after our room, also the food was very simple and we took care of kitchen cleaning. We were invited to all services and Liturgy in the last monastery I was started at 3AM. Now when I visited as much younger girl a monastery in Greece I was served a wonderful ice cream and I said that it was the best ice cream ever. This ice cream was brought to the monastery by visitors (since we bring food always in our tradition when we visit a monastery) and the sisters did not eat the ice cream for themselves but saved it for the youngsters who visited to treat them well and offer hospitality.

Fourth, in this diverse world what one may view it as necessity another may view it as luxury, or another may view it as scarcity.

[Cyprian (Humphrey)]

I might be speaking through ignorance here, not having visited any monasteries and being really young,...
No comment.

...but does it seem that Orthodox monasteries in America have 'above average' conditions of comfort, in comparison to monasteries in Orthodox countries like Serbia or Russia, and if one truly wishes to live a monastic life of prayer, poverty, asceticism, and obedience, is America a good country on the subject of poverty?
This is less an issue about monasteries in America, than it is about America in general. Globally, people think America has "above average" conditions of comfort all around. However, there is also considerable poverty there too. There are homeless people in America. There are families that have no idea where their next meal is coming from.

Admittedly, those constitute a smaller portion of society than they would in, say, India, but there is also ridiculously extravagant lifestyles to be found in all the so-called third world countries too.

The monasteries in any country live in conditions relative to the society surrounding them. Oddly enough, throughout history, monasteries have often had better living conditions than the average person. This was due to a combination of strong work ethics, a communal concept of living, and, strangely enough, royal endowments. The better living conditions were always an attraction for young peasants. That was the trade-off for many - accept celibacy in order to get better food, or something along those lines. We may not like it, and we may not think it's spiritual, but that is the historic fact.

It would seem that poverty abides in monasteries that are not American, but then again, this is coming from someone who has not visited a single monastery, be it in America or another country.
Again, no comment.

And would it somehow be pseudo monasticism,...
No. It wouldn't. I'll explain further on.

...because monasticism is all about the life of struggle, and according to the elders sanctification can only come through suffering,...
Really? No one has ever been sanctified through prayer? No one has ever been sanctified through the mysteries of the Church? No one has ever been sanctified by obedience?

I could go on, but you get the idea. Suffering is not the only means to sanctification. It is one of many.

...and if there is no suffering, sanctification will not come.
What elders have you been listening too?

And who can really struggle when you have all the appliances that you need to live the life of comfort, but just refuse to use them until a certain point.
That's the point. You don't have to use every convenience all the time. However, certain things like space heaters can make the difference between life and death in certain climates. I've met people from all over the world who have no idea just how cold it can get in certain regions (like Canada). Around -60 degrees celsius you have to be careful how you blink because the moisture on your eyelashes can freeze, and then you can't open your eye. It's a rather weird feeling. Trust me.

I'll put it this way: there's suffering for Christ's sake, and there's just plain old suffering. Just as there are fools for Christ's sake, and then there are just plain old fools, it's best not to confuse them.

Now, from further on in the conversation:

I was speaking about the 'modern world'...
No. You weren't. You've titled this thread "Monasteries in America."

...and never did I mention terrible 'luxury' in monasteries, do not exaggerate what I say or put words into my mouth.
Admittedly, I used some hyperbole, and I apologize if that's offended you. But you did imply that you thought monasteries in America had above average standards of comfort. Can you clarify what exactly it is that you think is so above average, and how it would impede progress in the spiritual life?

Central heating isn't considered luxurious, but the fact is that I do not have it either. And I will check out the monastery in Platina CA in the coming couple of years.
I too live without central heating, or air conditioning. We do have indoor plumbing and electricity though. I hope Platina works out well for you.

And according to you asceticism is not about living in adversity?
Not necessarily. Keep in mind that what is adverse for one person is not necessarily adverse for another.

Then what is it about? Self denial and self control?
That's what I said.

Self denial and self control would eventually lead to adversity. e.g. Hermits
Actually, self denial and self control lead to mastery of one's self. Hermits live in one type of ascetic lifestyle, to which not all (not even all monks!) are called.

There are four basic things that make monasticism,... well... monastic. They are: stability, poverty, obedience and chastity. Poverty is only one of the four. It sounds like you may be focusing on one, to the exclusion of the others. Cenobitic poverty, in simple terms, simply means not owning things yourself. That means that the stuff in the monastery is not "mine", but "ours" - and that would include the stuff in your own cell. Although, in common practice, there are some things that are technically common property, but not really shared, like toothbrushes, underwear, etc. But, if I have a chair in my cell, and someone has a greater need for it than I do - they get the chair. That is poverty in a cenobium. It's not whether there is a chair there or not - it's that the chair isn't "mine".

Further, it is not for others (especially those who have no experience or true knowledge of monasticism) to judge how certain cenobiums are managed, and with how much "stuff" they live. Keep in mind that most Athonite monasteries, up until relatively recently owned huge tracts of land, and lived off the income from serfs and peasants working that land. They were, quite literally, the "land-lords". So, while they may have had certain adversities, like no running water or electricity (conditions they shared with everyone prior to the 20th century!), they also had certain luxuries not enjoyed by monasteries in the Americas, like having a steady income.

This wasn't written to offend you, but please understand that you've admitted to not knowing much about the topic, and then went on to ask some questions that were more than a little accusatory, while nonetheless remaining essentially baseless.

In the words of the Psalmist: "come, and see". Visit a monastery. Actually, visit a few. See how the monks live. Ask them questions about poverty and ascesis. I doubt it'll do you any harm. Keep in mind though, that there are no perfect monasteries - sorry.

Monk Cyprian

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Fr Cyprian wrote:



The monasteries in any country live in conditions relative to the society surrounding them. Oddly enough, throughout history, monasteries have often had better living conditions than the average person. This was due to a combination of strong work ethics, a communal concept of living, and, strangely enough, royal endowments. The better living conditions were always an attraction for young peasants. That was the trade-off for many - accept celibacy in order to get better food, or something along those lines. We may not like it, and we may not think it's spiritual, but that is the historic fact.

I think these comments are very much to the point. Poverty is fundamental to the monastic calling. But this does not mean that it is an absolute material standard. If it was then this would overlook how purely by material standards what is poverty for one person is plenty for another.

Instead poverty is an obedient acceptance of the way of life marked out by the community one is part of. This shows us then that the essential aspect of poverty is actually poverty of spirit-of setting aside self-will in regards to the monastic community one is part of.

As to the relation of the monastic community to the community at large- this has always been challenging because what for the monastery is obedience to a certain order is at times perceived as signs of privilege and a life filled with ease.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rebecca Gabl]

Well said, fathers! Even if one lives in a comfortable room, there are other forms of asceticism, such as hard labor, fasting, obedience...

[Father David Moser]

Well said, fathers! Even if one lives in a comfortable room, there are other forms of asceticism, such as hard labor, fasting, obedience...

Particularly the last, I think. Obedience is the greatest struggle of all, a much more difficult ascesis than poverty certainly. If one can live in perfect obedience, even in the midst of great wealth, the resulting virtue is greater than all others (do not the fathers teach that obedience leads to humility - the queen of the virtues?)

Fr David Moser

[Tanya Hoadley]

Perhaps it's good to remember to keep our eyes on our own plate.

Tanya

[J. K. Amra]

This wasn't written to offend you, but please understand that you've admitted to not knowing much about the topic, and then went on to ask some questions that were more than a little accusatory, while nonetheless remaining essentially baseless.

In the words of the Psalmist: "come, and see". Visit a monastery. Actually, visit a few. See how the monks live. Ask them questions about poverty and ascesis. I doubt it'll do you any harm. Keep in mind though, that there are no perfect monasteries - sorry.

Monk Cyprian

I appreciate the reply, and understand that it wasn't right for me to ask this in a manner it was asked, so forgive me for any misunderstandings or any comments that might have offended you, or anyone else. Though I have learned something new that I didn't know before. I plan on visiting some monasteries in the future, and hopefully one in Russia, whenever I visit. Hopefully God will grant me the strength, wisdom, obedience, love, and anything else needed that which He sees me worthy of, in order to take up the calling of a monastic, even though such an idea might seem crazy coming from someone my age, and my little understanding of the Orthodox Faith, but where there is a will, there is a way.

[Jim Andersen]

While we are on the topic of visiting a monastery, is it possible to stay in a Monastery for a predetermined time (say to try living in and being part of the Monastic Order for a year)?

[Father David Moser]

with the blessing of the abbot, certainly. In fact most monastic brotherhoods will not accept you as a novice until you have done something like this, just to be sure its what you want.

Fr David

[Jim Andersen]

Can this time be shorter then a year to live in a monastery and be part of the order:

A Week?

A Month?

A 1/3 - 1/4 - 1/2 of a Year?

[Paul Cowan]

It can be as short as you walking up to the gates. It may be you are a novice the rest of your life. Why the rush? This is not something you can get out of once you are in. AND, the igumen will have to accept you. It may be that you will not "fit" into their society. Remember what Jesus was praying in the Garden...

Paul

[Cyprian (Humphrey)]

I think I see where you're coming from Mr Andersen. In RC monasticism, the various orders have various programs where one can "discern" one's calling. These would usually have a period of living in a monastic context for a period of time, as well as other things on the program.

Well, Orthodoxy doesn't really have that exactly. Obviously, we have no orders - all Orthodox monastics are of the same order, and paradoxically every monastery is an order unto itself. Similarly, there's no pre-set time limit on how long it takes to discern one's calling. There are no pre-planned programs one can enter to experience what it is like in a monastery.

You simply develop a relationship with a monastery (which can start as simply as phoning them or emailing them, and asking if you can visit), visit a few times, and if the community, through the Abbot, blesses you to, you can try living there for longer periods of time. It's different for every person. That's why there's no pre-set time limits.

Hope that helps.

the unworthy monk,
Fr Cyprian

[David Naess]

I am currently an aspirant.

I first went to New Skete Monastery in NY for "Vocation Week" which they started last summer specifically for aspirants. I went back for 1 week stays over a period of about 10 months and made a formal application for consideration which was turned down. They probably had pity on my reconstructed ankle due to the fact that they live on the side of a mountain and the road has about a 30 degree slope. It was trecherous when I visited them in February!

I just got back from St. Tikhon's where I was invited to "come visit us for a week or two and we will talk about your monastic future." I stayed for just under 2 weeks. I am invited back for up to a week any time I want to go. Most visitors are only allowed the 3 day hospitality.

Dave

[Jason H.]

Here is the USTAV from the Monastery of St. John in Redding, CA. They have the same USTAV of St. Tikhon's in PA.


This concerns the acceptance of brethren into the monastic community, the infirmary, various crafts, and the hostel. A brother who is led by God into monasticism should first be examined in private by the Abbot, who should explain to him in scriptural terms the power of monastic communal living, of obedience according to God, and of the self-detachment of will and reasoning unto death. Should the Abbot find in him a sincere, unpretentious desire for monasticism and a zeal for God, he will admit him to the communal life, after once again revealing to him the power of communal living, and obedience in the presence of the entire community of brethren. He should not be tonsured immediately, but after a period of time determined by regulations. One should be kept in lay clothing for six months, and another for three years, depending on the fruits of obedience and self- detachment. Tonsured to wear the riassa or the mantia, he should then join the brethren. If, however, at the end of the trial period the Abbot finds neither true obedience nor true self-detachment in him even after three years, he should not tonsure him but release him into the world, so that he would not serve as a temptation to the communal life. –St. Paisiy Velichkovsky


Men come to the monastery as visitors, and may stay 3 days, or longer with the blessing of the Council. Guests and members as listed below are all expected to participate fully in the life of the community.
1. Worker. Must be or become at least a catechumen. The duration of worker status is limited to one year at which point the worker, according to the Council’s consensus, must decide to become a postulant or leave the community.
2. Postulant. Must be Orthodox in good standing with the Church. With the consensus of the Council, after several weeks, they are received as postulants (clothed in a black shirt, belt, and skufia).
3. Novices. At the discretion of the Council, and after a life confession to the Abbot, a postulant may be clothed in a cassock, belt, and skufia. The bishop is informed of the clothing of a novice.
4. Rasophore. After at least one year, a novice may petition the Abbot to be considered to be tonsured as a rasophore. If the Abbot blesses the tonsure, the Abbot must then seek the blessing of the Bishop. The tonsure occurs with the blessing of the Bishop. At this time the rasophore surrenders all personal assets to the Monastic koinobion, and becomes a voting member of the community. The rasophore assumes equal responsibility for the life of the community with all other members.
5. Lesser Schema. After at least 3 years in the monastery, the rasophore monk may petition the Abbot, who would then petition the Bishop, to be tonsured into the mantia or small schema. This is a confirmation of his life commitment to the community.
6. Great Schema. According to the Russian tradition, this step marks the entrance of a monk of profound spiritual maturity into the solitary life.

Here is the link to the Ustav: http://www.monasteryofstjohn.org/abbatialessays/Ustav.pdf



I am also pursuing the monastic life and have "chosen" St. John's in CA. I'm currently paying off my debt and tying up lose ends and hope to be out there some time next year.

David, wasn't St. Tikhon's such a beautiful place! Igumen Sergius is a wonderful man.

[Timothy Bailey]

http://sttikhonsmonastery.org/images/photos/monastery_tour/DSC_0245.JPG

I realize this pic has probably been forgotten in the course of this thread, but I really wanted to try to make an honest distinction here. I believe (and I could be wrong) that this is in fact not a monastic cell, but a seminary student's dorm room, which would explain the prevalence of papers in the shelving to the right of the picture and the cluttered desk.

The reason I try to make this observation in the first place is that I have seen this photo before and it dealt with researching student life at the seminary of St. Tikhon's.

I also find it very hard to believe that any true monastic would be guilty of having a space heater in their cell regardless of what the conditions might be (you can see the snow outside of the window).

[Archimandrite Irenei]

Dear Timothy, you wrote:

I also find it very hard to believe that any true monastic would be guilty of having a space heater in their cell regardless of what the conditions might be
This is a bit harsh, my dear friend! In most monasteries on Athos, there is a heater or stove in every cell. So in many other monasteries! And I do suppose these to be 'true' monastics! :)

INXC, Fr Irenei

[Timothy Bailey]

Dear Timothy, you wrote:

This is a bit harsh, my dear friend! In most monasteries on Athos, there is a heater or stove in every cell. So in many other monasteries! And I do suppose these to be 'true' monastics! :)

INXC, Fr Irenei

This comes as a bit of a shock Father Irenei... I would have to then make a resounding statement that if a bunch of American ragtag recruit soldiers can fight iron-willed German crack infantry in the dead of Winter in the Ardennes and come out on top, then I would have to argue that THE frontline soldiers in the battle against human passions can go without this luxury. Forgive my harshness, but for myself (a veteran of the Iraq war), I don't see why or how "true" monastics can concede this.

[Archimandrite Irenei]

The same way they have for many centuries, Timothy.

My advice, before making rather condemnatory comments about a tradition you don't know: go become a true monastic in one of these places for a few decades. Learn the life, and its real contours. Then judge, if you still feel you need to. :)

INXC, Fr Irenei

[Timothy Bailey]

Forgive me Father for sounding too brash in my earlier comments, and you are correct that I don't know much about the monastic tradition, but I tried to make an honest polemical statement without sounding too insolent or assertive, and I think I failed in that regard.

Moreover I have to make it clear that the shock of your former statements created the reaction you saw because I do in fact ponder one day becoming a tonsured monastic and I have always considered this Tradition to be entirely "other-worldly". Any hint of luxury just seems to be too conciliatory and risky to someone who has become one of the devil's most hated adversaries, so to speak.

But without sounding like I am trying to divert this thread I just wanted to make it plain to you Father and anyone else who read my comments that I have the utmost respect for ANY Orthodox monastic to the point of being able to take a bullet for one (maybe a bit vulgar, but I digress), so I pray that you don't take my words as being condemnatory in any way Father and if it were possible I would truly enjoy discussing the monastic life with you and anyone else with experience in another thread.

Forgive me, a sinner
INXC, Timothy

[Archimandrite Irenei]

Dear Timothy and others,

Take heart, and don't worry! Often when we look at, and make the first approaches to, a way of life worthy of respect and emulation, we rush to make judgements on aspects of it that we don't understand, out of a desire to retain the preciousness of that which we are seeing. Zeal sometimes makes of us unjust judges! Don't be concerned: no one will hold such zealousness against you. When we identify such trends in ourselves, and seek to correct them, we start to be shaped by this life - and so much good can come of it.

You are very welcome to start new threads or join existing conversations on the Orthodox monastic life: I and others will be happy to speak with you where we are able and where it is profitable.

INXC, Fr Irenei

[Herman Blaydoe]

While there are no formal "orders" in Orthodox monastic practice, as there is in the Roman tradition, it is far from monolithic. There are different traditions, different practices. And within most of these, there are different levels of discipline. The discipline of a novice is much less than that taken on by a schema monk, and that is not the asceticism of a great schema monk. A novice is not a great schema monk, and is not expected (nor encouraged as far as I know) to attempt such a rigorous discipline right away. Many schema monks will never become great schema monks, and those that do generally only do so after years of experience. Not everyone is called to be a great schema monk, not even all monastics.

There is a story from the Desert Fathers, about a young monk who was scandalized by another monk who was allowed to have a servant monk, and books, and a few "creature comforts". He asked the abbot about this. The abbot asked the monk about how he lived before becoming a monk. The young man said that he was a farm hand, slept in a barn on straw and often only ate once a day. The abbot mentioned that he now had his own cell, a real bed, ate regular meals, and overall experienced a much lighter workload. The young man agreed. Then the abbot explained that the monk in question was originally from a royal family, and in his former life had many servants and lived in a palace, slept on silk sheets. Now he lives in a small cell, with a single servant, and works along with all the other monks. The abbot then asked the man, if his life is now better than it was, why he would begrudge the person for whom life was now much harder than it had been? The young man went away edified.

If you desire to become a great schema monk, to God be the glory, should such a wonderous thing happen. But do be careful about judging those who do not.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.
Herman the Pooh

[Alice]

Great story, Herman! Thank you for sharing it.

--Alice

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

For 12 years I lived in monasteries; 6 in a Skete in eastern Canada; 3 months on Mt Athos; 6 years in a monastery in eastern America. But it is very rare that I speak about monasticism, since this is the most treasured part of what I am, of where God has led me as an Orthodox Christian.

In any case one reason for my replying to Timothy's post, is that at first, until today, it was one of those very rare times when no words or thoughts came to mind even in private. Actually, I lived in the monastery shown in the picture and well remember the very distinct rooms there; at first sight they could appear a bit fancy, but in time one came to appreciate their modesty. Such a small space could easily become restrictive if a larger Church life did not surround you. Similarly with the various quirks associated with the place; you could be driven to distraction if you forgot the one thing necessary. So in time you learned that yes, this also is a true monastery, with those present who were leading martyric monastic lives, in hope & emulation of the Elders (as in the photos on the walls of this room). But again, you had to keep focused to not wander off into harmful temptations about what others should or should not be doing.

The physical condition though of a monastery is a difficult thing to put into words. I have lived in monasteries that had the modest amenities of life; and I have lived in monasteries of basic simplicity. But it seemed that it was in the latter that we lived in most luxury, since only in conditions of necessity do you really appreciate what you have. There a small wood stove to keep out the fierce cold & wind of a January day makes you feel like the most blessed person on earth, dearly loved by God; and a glass of water from the well tastes better than champagne. You begin to learn why the more you have the less you appreciate it.

At the end of the day though, monastics live in obedience to the condition of the monastery they are part of. This obedience is what redeems what is physically present, what makes it more modest & that responds to discerning need.

Beyond this however, monastics in particular also need a balanced condition in all that is part of their lives and which surrounds them. Pull too hard in the direction of ascetic starkness & rigour and you can break a person or cause demonic temptations towards pride and self-sufficiency (it's amazing how much a person out of self will can get used to; and start thinking of themselves as ascetic); but be too slack and you can fall into temptations that are also disastrous. So what we see in the externals that surround the monastic are often the result of the effort to attain and hold this balance- which in turn is gradually changing and being transformed over time.

Let me end then with a story about this same monastery. It isn't told to chastise anyone but rather as an example of something important.

Anyhow- by now we have reached the time when we can more openly refer to how this particular monastery for so long suffered from being idiorhythmic. After the Russian revolution the monastery reflected the chaos of Orthodoxy for many years. It was tragic to see what had occurred but yet amidst this many shone out on an individual level through their steadfastness.

Now there was one monk there when I arrived who lived very much in the 'old way'. Cassocks were rarely worn except during the service; hair was cut; fasting was little followed; there were jobs to be had at the seminary for which one was paid; hieromonks were sent out to serve in the parishes on weekends. This is just the 'way it was' and when I arrived at the monastery there were still some of the monastics who lived like this.

Now one of these monks died and I had the responsibility to clean out his room. Yes- there were a number of amenities there (but nothing luxurious by any means). But then it hit me, that this person at a time and age when he could just as easily have pursued a successful career in the world & been married with a family (he had a very outgoing and affable character) had chosen to lead what was really a very restrictive way of life. Suddenly then his room and what was left in it looked a lot more modest and small. Suddenly everything looked different because it could be seen how he too had lived a life of sacrifice in the way this had presented itself to him. And this lesson has stayed with me to this day.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Eugenia Vasiliadis]

Very well said Fr. David!
One can only know the sacrifice and deprivation as well as the temptations of a monastic when he or she is placed in that life.