Why did the incarnation take place when it did?

[Evan]

Apologies in advance for an embarassingly open-ended and possibly unanswerable question. Perhaps I am striving to know more than it is given to man to know.

I have heard it stated recently that the Son became Incarnate as soon as individuals' hearts were sufficiently disposed to receive His saving doctrines. This raises the question, of course, as to what good it would have done for Him to enter Hades and preach the Gospel to those who previously died, if no one was sufficiently disposed to receive Him before that time.

Perhaps some more knowledgeable can shed light upon this matter.

In Christ,
Evan

[Herman Blaydoe]

Apologies in advance for an embarassingly open-ended and possibly unanswerable question. Perhaps I am striving to know more than it is given to man to know.

I have heard it stated recently that the Son became Incarnate as soon as individuals' hearts were sufficiently disposed to receive His saving doctrines. This raises the question, of course, as to what good it would have done for Him to enter Hades and preach the Gospel to those who previously died, if no one was sufficiently disposed to receive Him before that time.

Perhaps some more knowledgeable can shed light upon this matter.

In Christ,
Evan

Well, there had to be prophecies made to fulfill before He could fulfill them, and the Theotokos had to be born before she could bear Him. Perhaps it was her and her heart that had to be prepared to make her the perfect vessel, and that is just how long it took?

Just a little thought from a bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Evan]

Well, there had to be prophecies made to fulfill before He could fulfill them, and the Theotokos had to be born before she could bear Him. Perhaps it was her and her heart that had to be prepared to make her the perfect vessel, and that is just how long it took?

Just a little thought from a bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh


I particularly like the idea that the Theotokos' heart being ready was the precondition for the Incarnation. Perhaps it took that long for one with her obedience and humility to be born and come of age.

Did any particular writings lead you to this insight, Herman?

In Christ,
Evan

[Paul Cowan]

I also believe along the lines of Herman. I can't show any references, but fallen humanity "worked" with God throughout the millenia offering it's brokeness in the line of Adam; adulterers, murderers, foreigners, etc. to produce the Theotokos and Joseph who at the right time in the cosmos were the perfect two to receivec the Christ into the world. It is not as many PC think that God could have just gone down the street and chosen another virgin at this particular point in time if she had said "No". No, the gene pool was well under construction from the time of Adam to Mary to allow the Christ to come into such a perfect mom.

The little regard PC have for Panaghia shows their poor understanding of the "work" involved throughout time for this woman to be born as she was from elderly parents, to live in the temple devoted to the Lord and then not to sin as we know it. It is her perfection that the cosmos held it's breath as it awaited her to say "let it be done unto me". Had she said no, I think we would still be waiting for the messiah as no other girl would have been of high enough quality. Not then, and certainly not now.

Paul

[Antonios]

Dear Evan,

Paul and Herman I believe are expressing the Orthodox held beliefs regarding the timing of the Incarnation.

Abraham beheld the Lord with his eyes because of his faith and righteousness.
The Theotokos beheld the Lord in her womb because of her faith and righteousness.

There is only one Abraham in the Kingdom of God and only one Mother of God.

The Incarnation of the Word of God occurred in tandem with human faith and righteousness, and when the precious vessel and bearer of God appeared in the person of the Virgin Mary, God found a pure temple into which He would enter this fallen and corrupted world. No greater act of love had the world seen until that point, and no greater Gift has the world received.

Surely, God waits patiently for humankind and His Love is beyond our understanding!

In Christ,
Antonios

[Father David Moser]

It is important, when trying to understand the various feasts not to take them in isolation, but rather look at the context in which the Church places them. In the case of our Lord's Nativity, there are two Sundays just prior to that feast, each of which expresses the preparation by the Holy Spirit of mankind to receive the Savior. The following is an excerpt from a homily I gave earlier this year on the Sunday before the Nativity:


Throughout the whole of the history of the Old Testament we see how God gradually guided the course of the world gradually molding and shaping fallen man towards the pinnacle of perfection through which He Himself would come into the world. From the very beginning we see God choosing righteousness over sin, teaching, by long and thorough lessons, what is good and what is evil. When the time was right, God chose a particular people, the patriarch Abraham and then Isaac and then Jacob as the line from which He would draw this perfect vessel. The children of Israel, were then given the law to guide them and the prophets to ever push them into the application of the law. With each generation, the chosen people became more and more adept at living within the law and becoming as perfect as man was able to become on his own. Finally this progression towards perfection found its ultimate peak and its ultimate expression in the birth of the Virgin Mary who was the chosen vessel, the ultimate perfect human being produced by the efforts not only of one family or of one generation, but by the whole of the human race from Adam and Eve on through the Patriarchs and chosen people; again through the kings and priests and finally through the ancestors of God, Joachim and Anna. The Holy Virgin Mary was brought by her parents to the temple as an offering to God and the High Priest and Prophet Zacharias received her and by the grace of God saw her to be the perfect vessel, the pinnacle of perfection which the world had produced to offer to God. Thus the High Priest Zacharias led her not only into the temple, but placed her in the Holy of Holies where the Ark of the covenant had once stood for she would become the new Ark of the Covenant, the throne of God who would come into the world through her womb, be carried in her arms as though born by the Holy Angels and sit upon her lap as upon a throne.

The Holy Virgin Mary is the peak of the perfection of the created world. She is the best that creation could ever offer to the creator.

The entire homily can be read here (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/message/332).

Fr David Moser

[Evan]

It is important, when trying to understand the various feasts not to take them in isolation, but rather look at the context in which the Church places them. In the case of our Lord's Nativity, there are two Sundays just prior to that feast, each of which expresses the preparation by the Holy Spirit of mankind to receive the Savior. The following is an excerpt from a homily I gave earlier this year on the Sunday before the Nativity:



The entire homily can be read here (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/message/332).

Fr David Moser


Father, bless:

I am grateful for this lucid and thoughtful analysis. If I understand correctly, we cannot understand the timing of the incarnation as the result of a sufficiently obedient, humble vessel having "popped up" at a certain time in a certain place, but rather, we must understand the Theotokos' obedience and humility as the result of God's gentle but firm leading of the Israelites through the giving of the law, and the prophets, as befit "children" in need of milk rather than strong meat. Without such instruction, such a vessel could not have taken shape, so to speak. Thus, as soon as the incarnation COULD have happened --as soon as a "yes" could have been given-- it did.

In Christ,
Evan

[M. Rallis]

It is important, when trying to understand the various feasts not to take them in isolation, but rather look at the context in which the Church places them. In the case of our Lord's Nativity, there are two Sundays just prior to that feast, each of which expresses the preparation by the Holy Spirit of mankind to receive the Savior.


The entire homily can be read here (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/message/332).

Fr David Moser


Is it going overboard to say that the purpose of the Jerusalem temple was accomplished when it served as the home of the Theotokos? And, likewise, that of the temple ritual worship, when it produced the pure, humble, obedient and ever-virgin Mary?

[Andreas Moran]

Is it going overboard to say that the purpose of the Jerusalem temple was accomplished when it served as the home of the Theotokos? And, likewise, that of the temple ritual worship, when it produced the pure, humble, obedient and ever-virgin Mary?

I don't think so. It was also necessary for these events to happen before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 (though God could have delayed that had He wished).

[Mary]

Fr David, thank you for your post!

I too have thought about this, and come to the same conclusion, and had been wondering if I was right. God took great care in giving Moses instructions of worship and details of how to build the temple, the dimensions, material, designs, and everything. And yet, it wasn't an end in itself... it was all the foundation, and it was meant to lead to something, make a way for something. Although they were given so many rules to follow and obey, the purpose of all that was so the Jewish people would get to know God and draw near to him. Many got tangled in all the laws, but there were those who drew near to God too, and they wouldn't have been able to get as close to Him, if He hadn't made a way for them to get near, through the Worship in the Temple, and all their cycles of feasts and fasts. And each generation builds on the one before, learning from past mistakes, and fine-tuning their relationship with God. Until finally, we get to the Theotokos. She couldn't have been all she was, if she didn't have godly parents, and they couldn't have been who they were without those who were in their lives.

And, the ordinary men whom Jesus chose to become the Apostles, wouldn't have been who they were, if they didn't have that solid Jewish foundation. There were probably things that they just knew inately, because of who they were, and perhaps those things had to be lived for so many generations, in order to become a very part of the people. And whatever those things were, are very important. If they weren't, God wouldn't have set apart the Jewish people. He could've worked randomly through anyone.

All of which, is another good reason to hold on to what the Fathers teach us. We can't get very far, if we disconnect ourselves from the foundation they have laid for us.

in Christ,
Mary.

[Theophrastus]

Did any of the Fathers mention astronomical reasons for the Incarnation taking place when it did? There's a connection between the precession of the equinoxes and the period between 100 BCE and 100 CE.

[Ben Johnson]

Did any of the Fathers mention astronomical reasons for the Incarnation taking place when it did? There's a connection between the precession of the equinoxes and the period between 100 BCE and 100 CE.What kind of connection?

[Theophrastus]

What kind of connection?
I'll try to keep this as uncomplicated as possible.

The two equinoxes of the year (vernal and autumnal) are the two days on which the sun is right above the equator; the length of the day and night of each equinox is roughly the same. In the northern hemisphere, the vernal equinox, for instance, is always around 21 March. The vernal equinox is the beginning of Spring. (The autumnal equinox is the beginning of Autumn, around 22 September in northern hemisphere.)

The zodiac, now usually associated with astrology, historically had uses in astronomy. There is the tropical zodiac and the sidereal zodiac.

The tropical zodiac is based on the seasons, while the sidereal zodiac is based more on the actual position of the stars in the sky. What this means is that, on any particular day, the sun might be located in one sign of the tropical zodiac; while in the sidereal zodiac, the sun is located in another sign.

In the tropical zodiac, the sun is always located at 0 degrees Aries on the vernal equinox (21 March). This is true whether the year is 2009 or 300 AD.

However, in the sidereal zodiac, the sun's location on 21 March changes about 1 degree per 70 years. This change in location is due to something called the precession of the equinoxes. In 2009, the sun on 21 March is located at 5 degrees Pisces. Starting around 2500 AD, the sun on 21 March will enter and be located in Aquarius. If we go back in time, to 300 AD, we find that the sun on 21 March is located at 0 degrees Aries.

Notice that the sun in the tropical zodiac on 21 March; and the sun in the sidereal zodiac on 21 March; both occupy 0 degree Aries. Thus, the tropical and sidereal zodiacs actually matched around 300 AD. (Some say that the tropical and sidereal zodiacs matched anywhere between 100 BC to 400 AD.)

If I have my calculations correct, the tropical and sidereal zodiacs match up only once in 25,000 years.

So, one could say that Christ took birth during an astronomical event that occurs once in 25,000 years, when the two zodiacs were one and the same. (Perhaps the Magi had something like this in mind when looking for the baby of Promise.) Christ took birth at the center of time.

For an indepth look see this (http://www.lunarplanner.com/siderealastrology.html).

[Herman Blaydoe]

No, God did not have to wait until the stars aligned. He no doubt set them in motion so that they would come together at the time He appointed. He controls the stars, they do not control Him (or us).

Herman the starry-eyed Pooh

[Ben Johnson]

I thought that was a very interesting aticle and have no problem with precession, but I agree with Herman with which is the creator and which is the creation.

[Paul Cowan]

Just for the fun of poking holes into this idea, man was not around 25,000 years prior so the magi had no primary frame of reference to know when the stars were to align. The way we are going, Man will not be here in another 25,000 years so it won't matter much. Calculating things just for the sake of calculating them I suppose is fun to those so inclined. I like building spreadsheets. But what is the real purpose? None of the long term calculations will matter a hill of beans to us in 100 years when we are dead and by then kids today will debunk our ideas of science as we have our ancestors so they won't care either.

Besides, we are not supposed to go to, visit, rely, practise astrology anyway.

Paul