God's judgement at the eschaton: 'despotism'?

[Vasiliki D.]

I am not sure if this is in the right area.

On another forum, an atheist was replying to a "fruit loop" christian governance and he made a statement that got me thinking:


We, humanity have invented laws in order to govern ourselves; they were not imposed on us by another parent entity - they are our laws. This is fine; if God does exist He has clearly left us to rule ourselves, respecting our free will and autonomy and I appreciate and respect that position. However, having left us to our freedom as He apparently has done, it is wrong for Him to turn up a the end as a judge; that is not respecting our autonomy; that is despotism.

Despotism.

Have people come across this "accusation" towards God before?
What is the Orthodox response to such a statement and have any of the writings from the fathers (past or recent) touched on this topic.

Any thoughts/feedbacks would be greatly appreciated.

[Alice]

In my humble opinion, this person's whole argument starts out incorrect with this statement:


have invented laws in order to govern ourselves; they were not imposed on us by another parent entity - they are our laws.

Our laws?!?!

Every law is based upon the Ten Commandments given to us by our 'parent entity', otherwise known to us believers as God.

[Paul Cowan]

On another forum,

Don't waste what little time you have. Be places you gain spiritual benefit.

Paul

[Owen Jones]

I suppose it makes a difference if one is arguing against an atheist or arguing against oneself. And I don't see any harm in addressing an atheist's objection if out of that one comes to a better understanding of one's own belief.

The OT ideal is to have no government, to exist directly under God's rule. But in condescension toward our sinfulness, God has given us political rulers. We consistently misuse and abuse our freedom, and do not seem capable, certainly not as societies and nations, to be able to govern ourselves according to His commandments and precepts. No one can honestly deny that we abuse and misuse our freedom.

Yes, of course, the atheist's basic premise is wrong, in arguing that all law is simply conventional, something that we create on a kind of contractual basis. For a philosophic refutation, not a theological one, of the contract theory of politics, you might want to look at "The Conservative Affirmation" (A bad title, used to promote sales) by Willmoore Kendall. Of course, it is essentially a Platonic argument, so I would also recommend reading Plato's Laws.

[Cyprian (Humphrey)]

We, humanity have invented laws in order to govern ourselves; they were not imposed on us by another parent entity - they are our laws.

This person's argument is based solely on the assumption that the laws that govern us are self-created. This may be true of modern legal compositions, such as any particular country's constitution and criminal codes. But carrying that assumption through to morality is a huge mistake.

It's basically like trying to say that the leaf creates the tree.

But, Paul's advice is good. Don't bother arguing with people who've got their minds made up.

You can't convince an atheist of God's existance through reason alone. They have to experience God.

For example, say you have a friend who is a fan of a movie star, let's pick Christopher Walken - he's a good example because he usually plays slightly odd characters. Your friend may have seen every movie Mr Walken has ever made. Maybe even read every interview Mr Walken has given. You could say he's a self-made Christopher Walken expert.

Then one day, you're travelling somewhere in the airport. You have to wait, so you decide to get a coffee and sit for a bit. Then you recognize the fellow you've sat down beside. It's Christopher Walken. You exchange some small talk. He makes a few comments about current events that are quite insightful and well thought out. The two of you get along quite well and end up having a great conversation. You exchange email addresses and keep in touch. He turns out to be quite a charitable and friendly guy - entirely unlike the characters he usually plays.

You go back to your friend later and try to tell him the story of how you met a movie star. He doesn't believe you because he's seen every Christopher Walken movie ever made, and he's sure Mr Walken is not like that. In fact, he tries to convince you that you were mistaken, and that you're deluded.

That's essentially the problem. They (the atheists) are convinced that they know so many things about God (like His non-existance!?), that they discount the possibility of someone meeting God and coming to a different conclusion than they have.

That is why the experiential knowledge of an Orthodox Christian trumps the intellectual arguments of an atheist every time. We just can't convince an atheist of that, because they don't share the same experience.

Deal gently with them. They don't have all the pieces to the jigsaw puzzle and are frustrated that they can't solve it.

But that's just my two kopecks.

[D. W. Dickens]

I'd love to hear some patristic thoughts on this.

I'm too inclined to argue from my own preconceived political notions, which wouldn't be helpful. However, I'd love some insight if someone has something from the fathers.

[Michael Woods]

Any thoughts/feedbacks would be greatly appreciated.

This thread is on a rather quick roll, sorry I am somewhat late.

But, it sounds like this individual or (Humanity) in his mind, invented the Law. I read a wonderful post of your (Vasiliki D.) on the thread: Noah's Flood: Why? And it really was a beautiful explanation on the truth of God being the measure of comparison and not the Law themselves in relation to the Old Testament. My question may come across somewhat poorly here, but I hope you and others understand what I ask.

Could you or others please explain how the Law is related to us, believers today. In regards to growing in Grace to immulate the image and likeness of Christ or through the gifts of virtues that God freely gives us. Which in turn energize the love of God. So that we look towards God for our comparison within ourselves and not the Law itself. So if we by accident break a Law or rule that is posted, is that sin within itself?

I truely would like to kill the lawyer within myself. For I feel legalism shrugs its shoulders at the love of God. I am such a sinner.

Michael

[Kyrill Bolton]

I agree with Fr Cyprian when he said, "Deal gently with them. They don't have all the pieces to the jigsaw puzzle and are frustrated that they can't solve it."

I would further suggest prayers for the person. The person may be delusional, hard-headed and most certainly wrong however the observation that he is thinking in such terms of the existence of a god or the God is always an opening for prayer that the Holy Spirit do a "number" on him/her.

As to your request for references to the Fathers I would suggest re-reading then meditating on Paul's words about the wisdom of God and man 1 Corinthians 1:10-31

You might want to look at St Athanasius's "The Incarnation of the Word" (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.vii.i.html), especially sections 41-55 "Refutation of Gentiles". While this does not speak to atheists in particular, it should give you some insights into persuasive discourse.

[Herman Blaydoe]

This thread is on a rather quick roll, sorry I am somewhat late.

But, it sounds like this individual or (Humanity) in his mind, invented the Law. I read a wonderful post of your (Vasiliki D.) on the thread: Noah's Flood: Why? And it really was a beautiful explanation on the truth of God being the measure of comparison and not the Law themselves in relation to the Old Testament. My question may come across somewhat poorly here, but I hope you and others understand what I ask.

Could you or others please explain how the Law is related to us, believers today. In regards to growing in Grace to immulate the image and likeness of Christ or through the gifts of virtues that God freely gives us. Which in turn energize the love of God. So that we look towards God for our comparison within ourselves and not the Law itself. So if we by accident break a Law or rule that is posted, is that sin within itself?

I truely would like to kill the lawyer within myself. For I feel legalism shrugs its shoulders at the love of God. I am such a sinner.

Michael

As far as I understand the Orthodox teaching, sin is not a crime to be punished, it is a sickness to be healed. God gave us the Law not so He could punish us, but to let us know just how sick we really are and so seek healing. He gave us the Law to prepare the world for the coming of the Christ. Christ does not abolish the Law, He fulfills it for us and then He adds to it--He said, "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another." (John 13:34).

The Law is not a legal system, it is a diagnostic tool that points us towards the Heavenly Physician. Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Bryan J. Maloney]

The only reason we resist human despotism is because the despots are mere humans.