View Full Version : Is homosexuality an obstacle to monastic life?
Mary J.
11-10-2009, 07:16 AM
Would homosexual orientation be likely to prevent someone from being allowed to become a monastic?
M.C. Steenberg
11-10-2009, 02:43 PM
Dear Mary,
Though it doesn't specifically touch on your precise question, the older thread Homosexuality, ascesis and human nature (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2152) (active in 2004) may be of interest as some background reading.
INXC, Dcn Matthew
Father David Moser
12-10-2009, 07:01 PM
Would homosexual orientation be likely to prevent someone from being allowed to become a monastic?
No more than gluttony or greed or anger or sloth or any other sinful orientation would prevent someone from becoming a monk. One of the key elements of monastic life is repentance and struggling against our own sinfulness. A person with a sinful "orientation" (regardless of the sin) who refused to struggle against that temptation and sought to justify themselves would probably have a hard time in a monastery - however anyone who is willing to ruthlessly struggle against their own sin will do well in monastic life.
Fr David Moser
If I'm not mistaken, Fr. Seraphim Rose was a practicing homosexual prior to his conversion. It did not prevent his tonsure to monasticism nor his ordination. I think there is an unhealthy tendency today, due to contemporary politics, to focus disproportionately on this one sin when there are so many other ones just as deadly and far more common.
Cyprian (Humphrey)
13-10-2009, 05:08 PM
I think there is an unhealthy tendency today, due to contemporary politics, to focus disproportionately on this one sin when there are so many other ones just as deadly and far more common.
Very true!
But, as for the original question, homosexuality is no more an obstacle to monastic life than heterosexuality. A monk or nun embraces celibacy making previous "orientations" moot.
Christophoros
13-10-2009, 06:54 PM
When you read through patristic collections such as the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, and the Questions and Answers of SS. Barsanuphius and John, advice for struggling against homosexuality is not uncommon. I think it is fair to say homosexuals have been admitted to the monastic life since the very beginning. As previously pointed out, whether the carnal inclinations are heterosexual or homosexual doesn't really matter - monastics struggle to remain chaste, regardless of their inclinations.
In Christ,
Chris
Panayota K.
21-10-2009, 04:57 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Fr. Seraphim Rose was a practicing homosexual prior to his conversion.
Really? I've read some books about him and I don't remember that!
Anyway, I have a question and I hope it won't be too irrelevant to this post. To whom can someone address when a homosexual priest makes a move on him and is there a penalty for that kind of act?
Panayota
Father David Moser
21-10-2009, 06:01 PM
Really? I've read some books about him and I don't remember that!
Anyway, I have a question and I hope it won't be too irrelevant to this post. To whom can someone address when a homosexual priest makes a move on him and is there a penalty for that kind of act?
Panayota
Any questions about the conduct of a priest should be addressed to the local Dean and/or the ruling bishop of the diocese.
Fr David Moser
Kusanagi
21-10-2009, 10:19 PM
I do not think homosexuality is an obstacle more than any other sin. If fornicators and murders seek monasticism as a way of repentance i dont see why homosexuality should be a prevention.
I also think if a priest makes a pass to you, it should be passed onto the Ruling Bishop, having said that this is a problem among the Orthodox priests in Indonesia.
I think in his life book Fr Seraphim Rose did experiment, but he was allowed to be made a priest though, so i dont think he went all the day or maybe the ruling bishop allowed him to be made priest.
Cyprian (Humphrey)
22-10-2009, 01:56 AM
I think in his life book Fr Seraphim Rose did experiment, but he was allowed to be made a priest though, so i dont think he went all the day or maybe the ruling bishop allowed him to be made priest.
Well, it is documented that he had some sort of relationship with another man before he converted to Orthodoxy, and that little detail was left out of the books published by St Herman's press. They had their reasons for doing so. At any rate, it's not a big deal, because there is exactly NO evidence that he continued with this behaviour in any way, shape or form.
But, I don't think it's for us to speculate about how far anyone went with anything, because that's between Fr Seraphim and the Bishop who ordained him.
That's my two kopecks.
Kusanagi
22-10-2009, 03:02 AM
exactly father!!!
I remember joining a yahoo group for Fr Seraphim Rose and most people were focusing on this lets say weakness he had in the past.
Thinking more towards the subject thread, i think all sins would be a hindrance if the person does not struggle against it and to correct oneself.
Panayota K.
22-10-2009, 07:59 PM
This thread reminded me of a story my sf said. A homosexual man became aware of his situation and tried to escape it with the help of a priest. Every time he came out of confession, he was determined not to sin anymore but a few days later he would come back with tears as he couldn't resist.He used to say he would rather die than sin again. His repentance was real and deep, even though his flesh was weak. One of the many times he drove back home after confession, he had a car accident and died. The priest afterwards said that God took pity on His hard-struggling child and release him from his passion.
If homosexuality wasn't an obstacle to a layman's spiritual life, then I guess it can't keep a man/woman from entering the monastic life.
Panayota
Dova Nisavic
25-10-2009, 10:34 PM
Is homosexuality an obstacle to monastic life?
Absolutely!
Homosexuality like any other sin is a result of the dead:
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Romans 1:26-27
Paul Cowan
26-10-2009, 12:55 AM
Dova,
I have to disagree with you. And you make my point in your post.
Homosexuality like any other sin is a result of the dead:
If homosexuality is like any other sin, then any other sin is like homosexuality which are all a result of the dead.
As has been posted already, actively engaging in sin is different from fighting against a sinful passion. Monastics are held to a higher water mark than us laymen. But they are still men/women and they still sin. I can't recall reading anywhere that a monastic was kicked out of his brotherhood for sinning. Rather his spiritual father woudl treat this disease of the mind and body as an illness and impose various types of penance to help him be cured.
Whether the sin be sex, sloth, gluttony, or any other, they are never as bad as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is the only sin to keep us from Heaven. So no, homosexuality is not an obstacle to monastic life. The act of homosexuality is yes, an abomination to God, but lust of the eyes and heart is just as bad in a straight person as in a gay person. We all have spiritual illnesses to be cured of.
As an aside, I would be curious what the last part of the scripture refers to.
Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion
What was the "due penality"?
Paul
Absolutely!
Homosexuality like any other sin is a result of the dead:
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Romans 1:26-27
Dear Dova
The sins of mankind are many, including adultery, fornication, homosexuality, violence against another, and murder. Yet, time and time again, the Orthodox Church has proclaimed as saints people who have engaged in such behaviour. Why? Because these people were moved, by the grace of God, to turn away (repent) from a life of sin, very serious sin, to a life of holiness. Think of St Mary of Egypt, St Moses the Black, to name but two. It is repentance, a conscious and persistent turning away from sin (ANY sin!), which may allow someone to be sanctified, whether he or she be a murderer, a fornicator, or a homosexual.
Dova Nisavic
27-10-2009, 06:55 PM
Dear Olga and Paul,
"Due penality" .....st. Poul talk about dead.
What is diference betwen homosexuality or gluttony or etc?
Sin have different names but all of them came into the world from dead.
Heterosexuality not a sin and we are not Buddhist who teaches that it is equally bad whether the person is heterosexual or homosexual.
If one man how want to be a monk have homosexual relationship he must go to the woman's monastic community.
If one man how want to be a monk have homosexual relationship he must go to the woman's monastic community.
That made me smile. =)
No, a man is a man, whether he's homosexual or heterosexual, and he must go to a men's monastery, and struggle very hard to overcome his sins. There can't be a better place for him to learn to be a real man. A woman's monastery would only reinforce his twistedness, that he is a different sort of man. He has to be treated the same as all men, because he is the same as all men.
At least, that's how I see it. So glad I'll never be asked to make such decisions! =)
In Christ,
Mary.
Dova Nisavic
27-10-2009, 09:37 PM
No, a man is a man, whether he's homosexual or heterosexual....
Well, if the sentence is true, then why ap. Poul say:
1. Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a]
2. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.
9. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
1 Corinthians 7
Yes, man is a man but sins is different and medicament must be different.
Originally Posted by Dova Nisavic View Post
If one man how want to be a monk have homosexual relationship he must go to the woman's monastic community.
Mary:
That made me smile. =)
I'm serious.
If one man homosexual....it must be constan temptation for him and draw him away from God.
Paul Cowan
28-10-2009, 01:26 AM
Dear Olga and Paul,
"Due penality" .....st. Poul talk about dead.
What is diference betwen homosexuality or gluttony or etc?
Sin have different names but all of them came into the world from dead.
Yes, sin has different names and all sin leads to death. Why would homosexuality in your mind be different from any other sin? Why do you feel a male monk would have to live with women monastics? Does that mean a gay female would then have to live with the male monks? It doesn't make sense.
We all have sin to struggle with. All sin leads to death. It is by God's grace alone we are permitted to even think about going to heaven. God will not let us be tempted beyond our measure. We must struggle with our sin where we are and confess regularly. Where would a monk who eats to much go? Where would a monk who lies go? Where would a monk who steals go? No, we must be where we are and deal with our sin where we are.
Paul
Yes, man is a man but sins is different and medicament must be different.
I'm serious.
If one man homosexual....it must be constan temptation for him and draw him away from God.
I agree, that sins are different, and therefore, treatments must be different. However, every individual is different too. So all people who tell lies, cannot be given the same penance, nor can all who commit adultery or who are homosexual. If it is too much of a temptation for a man to be in a monastery, his spiritual father will look out for him and give him the best advice. However, there may be just as many gay men, for whom the best place is a monastery. How can we know? We don't.
In Christ.
Mary.
Cyprian (Humphrey)
28-10-2009, 02:37 AM
If one man how want to be a monk have homosexual relationship he must go to the woman's monastic community.
Nothwithstanding the awkwardness of the grammar, I'm under the impression that you feel a monk with homosexual tendencies should live in a womens monastery. That is not the case in Orthodox practice. Nor, in my opinion, should it be.
Male monks are better equipped to help someone struggling with homosexuality than female ones. We understand how the male psyche approaches sexuality (which is almost entirely different from the female one - or so I'm led to believe). I'll admit it may become problematic when there are an uncontrollable number of monks with homosexual tendencies living in the same monastery, but, under the abbot's, and elder's or another spiritual father's, strict control, I think it could be handled. But, as I am in no way, shape or form, a spiritual father, I am speaking my opinion about a hypothetical situation.
I will note that, if English is not your native tongue, then I salute you for being good enough at it to engage in this conversation. I know no other language than English, and sometimes I think it is to my detriment. I've tried, and I have many troubles learning other languages. I know how difficult it is, and I'm impressed!
Panayota K.
28-10-2009, 07:24 PM
Dear Dova, I think the case here is this; being tempted to sin isn't always the same thing as actually doing the sin. Reading your post made me think a story from the life of St Basilios (I think, or at least one of the 3 Hierarchs). During the time he was Patriarch of Constantinople arose the matter of imagining the sin and practising it. Many of his bishops were preaching that these two are the same thing based on what Jesus said about even thinking lustfully of another woman. So St Basilios invited them for dinner and he ordered special and very delicious foods. Then he let them stare at their plates without permitting them to touch anything. After half an hour he asked them to leave and when they protested he answered than since they imagined having eating all then (according to their preaching) they did eat.
So, you see, being tempted to practise homosexuality isn't equal to practising it. If that was the case with every sin then there would be bad news for all of us. :)
According to the Fathers, sin begins with a logismos, the memory of something or other that is contrary to the ways of God. E.g., it's Lent, and you happen to pass a fast-food joint going full-blast. The odor is enticing, and raises in you the thought that a burger would taste soooooooooo good. This is what the Fathers call an Attack. It is not sinful in itself, but if not rebuffed immediately, it can lead to--
Coupling (dialoguing with the Devil), wherein we keep dwelling on the thought of how good that burger would be. This may or may not be an actual sin of thought. This can lead to--
Assent (you agree, in thought, that, by dingle jolly, you really do want to have that burger). This is definitely a sin of thought, and very difficult to shake. It can lead to--
Deed/Word (you stop whatever else you were up to, go into that fast-food joint, buy, and eat that burger.
Now, you're really put your foot in it, and that burger was so good, you decide you'll have another one next time you pass that way--and you make sure that you do pass that way. This is Captivity, you're in the grip of something bad. Add extra points if, the next time you have that burger, you order it Supersized and make a pig of yourself (that's Gluttony). And that leads to--
Passion: an addictive desire to sin (you end up having gained a lot of weight by Pascha, and lost the spiritual struggle). Passions, as any member of AA can tell you, are exceedingly difficult to get rid of; they require major treatment by your spiritual Father in Confession and a great deal of prayer, since only with the help of God can you overcome them.
Rick H.
28-10-2009, 07:48 PM
. . . the thought that a burger would taste soooooooooo good. This is what the Fathers call an Attack.
Actually, I think it is McDonald's who calls this a Big Mac Attack.
Dear Dova, I think the case here is this; being tempted to sin isn't always the same thing as actually doing the sin. Reading your post made me think a story from the life of St Basilios (I think, or at least one of the 3 Hierarchs). During the time he was Patriarch of Constantinople arose the matter of imagining the sin and practising it. Many of his bishops were preaching that these two are the same thing based on what Jesus said about even thinking lustfully of another woman. So St Basilios invited them for dinner and he ordered special and very delicious foods. Then he let them stare at their plates without permitting them to touch anything. After half an hour he asked them to leave and when they protested he answered than since they imagined having eating all then (according to their preaching) they did eat.
So, you see, being tempted to practise homosexuality isn't equal to practising it. If that was the case with every sin then there would be bad news for all of us. :)
I disagree. Is it possible to think lustful thoughts one minute and the very next minute pray with your whole heart? Thoughts are very real and very distracting and very sinful, in their own way. Perhaps the effect of it isn't the same as one who actually commits those sins, but it does destroy your soul. I grew up, not being allowed to do a lot of things my friends were free to do, so I spent my time escaping my boring life by daydreaming. It wasn't till recently that I realized how harmful that has been, in real life. Daydreaming does not prepare you to meet real-life challenges. I could imagine myself to be good at any number of things, but when I actually had to do stuff, I was unprepared. Living in a world of thoughts is very harmful. It destroys time, and it makes you fake.
in Christ,
mary
PS - every sin IS bad news for us!!!
Michael Stickles
28-10-2009, 11:00 PM
I disagree. Is it possible to think lustful thoughts one minute and the very next minute pray with your whole heart? Thoughts are very real and very distracting and very sinful, in their own way. Perhaps the effect of it isn't the same as one who actually commits those sins, but it does destroy your soul.
It is possible to allow yourself to be so repulsed by the very thoughts you've just indulged in, that you use that to drive you to humility and repentance. Some of my most heartfelt prayers have followed some of my worst times of "thought-sin". After many runs through this "sin-wash-rinse-repeat" cycle, I'm just starting to learn to do it with the initial logismoi, instead of waiting to hit the "sin" stages. A little (OK, a lot) more consistency would be nice, though...
INXC, Michael
It is possible to allow yourself to be so repulsed by the very thoughts you've just indulged in, that you use that to drive you to humility and repentance. Some of my most heartfelt prayers have followed some of my worst times of "thought-sin". After many runs through this "sin-wash-rinse-repeat" cycle, I'm just starting to learn to do it with the initial logismoi, instead of waiting to hit the "sin" stages. A little (OK, a lot) more consistency would be nice, though...
INXC, Michael
Personally, I think sinful thoughts are twice as sinful as sinful actions because you have committed two sins - one of the thought, and one of hypocrisy - pretending you're good, or letting others believe you are good, when you're not.
Of course, that doesn't mean it's right to go about with all your thoughts showing. =)
in Christ,
Mary.
Jonathan Michael
02-11-2009, 03:46 PM
I also don't think there should be an absolute bar on homosexuals entering monasteries; however I'm a little surprised how it has been argued that this particular passion is "just like" other passions.
After all, why are monasteries, on the whole, single sex? In part it is a condecension to our weaknesses, and to help prevent lustful thoughts among the monastics.
Therefore, surely, it could be argued that a community of men is not the best place for a homosexual man to go in order to live out a vow of celibacy, just as a community of women would not be the best place for a heterosexual man to live out the same vow. Yes, all passions are equally as "bad", yet they are all different, and I would have thought that the glaringly obvious difference of homosexual passions makes all the difference when we are talking of monastacism.
As Dova already said:
man is a man but sins is different and medicament must be different.
There are always exceptions (Fr Seraphim being one such exception), yet I can certainly see how sending a homosexual man or woman to a monastery might not be the best medicine this particular passion.
Michael Stickles
02-11-2009, 05:48 PM
Therefore, surely, it could be argued that a community of men is not the best place for a homosexual man to go in order to live out a vow of celibacy, just as a community of women would not be the best place for a heterosexual man to live out the same vow.
Of course, that's just looking at things from the perspective of the man in question. It could be argued that a community of women - when looked at from the perspective of the women - would not be a good place for any man (whether heterosexual or homosexual) to go to live out monastic vows.
In any case, if our hypothetical homosexual male applies to join a monastery, I'm perfectly happy to leave all these decisions to the abbot (I assume in consultation with the bishop) - he has way more experience than I do with helping men of all types struggle with their various passions. He will have to determine if the fellow should be allowed to stay at the monastery as a worker, if and when he should be given a Riassa and klobuk, etc., etc. If three different homosexual men apply, there will probably be three different sets of answers - each one is an individual, and the whole issue is primarily pastoral.
In Christ,
Michael
After all, why are monasteries, on the whole, single sex? In part it is a condecension to our weaknesses, and to help prevent lustful thoughts among the monastics.
Not the only reason. Maybe not even the main one. Lust isn't the only thing that cripples us, there are many passions. I think, a group of only men, or a group of only women has a totally different dynamics and atmosphere than a mixed group. And perhaps this dynamics has a lot to do with the effectiveness of a monastery.
I think the same thing can be observed in areas that used to be all male - like the military - which is now mixed. Things are not the same when they get mixed up. Maybe a group of men are far better at dealing with men problems and a group of women are much better at dealing with women problems. I know that it's harder for a woman to be prideful in the presence of other women, because we're all the same... In school, we were always quick to tear down other girls, and put them in their rightful place... Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it has it's useful side.
Therefore, surely, it could be argued that a community of men is not the best place for a homosexual man to go in order to live out a vow of celibacy, just as a community of women would not be the best place for a heterosexual man to live out the same vow. Yes, all passions are equally as "bad", yet they are all different, and I would have thought that the glaringly obvious difference of homosexual passions makes all the difference when we are talking of monastacism.
There are always exceptions (Fr Seraphim being one such exception), yet I can certainly see how sending a homosexual man or woman to a monastery might not be the best medicine this particular passion.
We could keep arguing till we go blue in the face. It serves no purpose. But my understanding is, anyone who desires to enter a monastery, is already aware that he or she is choosing that life in order to fight their passions. If they are oblivious to their passions or are not willing to war against them, they can't be monastic. On the other hand, if they are willing, then there's no better place for them, because they need all the help they can get.
in Christ,
Mary.
Jonathan Michael
02-11-2009, 10:20 PM
Of course, that's just looking at things from the perspective of the man in question. It could be argued that a community of women - when looked at from the perspective of the women - would not be a good place for any man (whether heterosexual or homosexual) to go to live out monastic vows.
Well quite, my agreement with Dova did not extend to her suggestion gay men should go to nunneries!
It is primarily a pastoral matter, as you and Mary have both said in different ways. I was just pointing out that the suggestion monasteries might have canons or "guidelines" for not admitting homosexuals is not as ridiculous as the responses here seemed to suggest. However, if no such teaching existed, I wouldn't be surprised by that either.
Well quite, my agreement with Dova did not extend to her suggestion gay men should go to nunneries!
It is primarily a pastoral matter, as you and Mary have both said in different ways. I was just pointing out that the suggestion monasteries might have canons or "guidelines" for not admitting homosexuals is not as ridiculous as the responses here seemed to suggest. However, if no such teaching existed, I wouldn't be surprised by that either.
Then there should also be guidelines about not admitting murderers because they might endanger the life of the monastics, or drug addicts because they might entice the monastics or those who came out of cults because they have deeply twisted doctrines and who knows if they've gotten rid of it all yet?
I'm sure they have some kind of guidelines. But don't you think everyone should get a fair chance? Personally, I would stay away from a monastery or a parish that refuses to admit any particular kind of sinner.
in Christ,
mary.
PS - are women's monasteries really called 'nunneries'? Sounds like a place where you might farm fish!
Herman Blaydoe
03-11-2009, 02:59 AM
PS - are women's monasteries really called 'nunneries'? Sounds like a place where you might farm fish!
In Orthodoxy, not so much. I don't think "nun" is in vogue in most Orthodox circles, at least "nun" that I am aware of.
Herman the Pooh
Paul Cowan
03-11-2009, 04:13 AM
Then there should also be guidelines about not admitting murderers because they might endanger the life of the monastics, or drug addicts because they might entice the monastics or those who came out of cults because they have deeply twisted doctrines and who knows if they've gotten rid of it all yet?
I'm sure they have some kind of guidelines. But don't you think everyone should get a fair chance? Personally, I would stay away from a monastery or a parish that refuses to admit any particular kind of sinner.
in Christ,
mary.
hummm, So where does that leave us with murderers and robbers and rapists like St. Moses the Black (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Moses_the_Black)? I thank God he was allowed into the monastery. The criteria for getting in is spiritual; not carnal. There are no earthly rules here. We don't know anything about this topic. Better to be left with those testing those who wish to enter this lifestyle.
Paul
M.C. Steenberg
03-11-2009, 10:18 AM
If any sin, in and of itself, is a barrier to the monastic life, there is no hope left for mankind.
Eric Peterson
03-11-2009, 03:30 PM
If any sin, in and of itself, is a barrier to the monastic life, there is no hope left for mankind.
Thank you, Father!
I think we need to be careful when we talk about the sinfulness of thoughts. We need to understand what thought, from the Orthodox patristic perspective, are, and not what they are from our own opinions.
As I recall, Elder Paisios of Mount Athos reckoned thoughts like airplanes flying overhead. Everyone has them flying over, causing distractions. This is not sinful; it is unavoidable. But, he says, one should not make airports for them to land. It is the entertaining of a sinful thought that can be reckoned as a sin, but, no, this is nowhere near the same as a sinful act.
It has seemed to me, both in this conversation and elsewhere when the subject comes up, that people always tend to confuse sin and temptation when it comes to homosexuality. Granted, there is a lot of confusion here, and much is bound up in issues of pride and identity which complicate the matter. But, as in all sins, someone who suffers temptations and fights against them does not sin. It is when he gives up an acts on them that he sins. We would not look down on an alcoholic who avoided alcohol; we should not look down on or put special burdens on a homosexual who fights against temptations which are very strong and complicated. I tell you that any attempt to make this particular sin different from any others will fail when held up to patristic teaching.
Herman Blaydoe
03-11-2009, 05:27 PM
I hesitate to toss this in, but I don't know if homosexuality is a barrier to monastic life, on an individual level, but it can certainly be a hazard monastic life in general, and a healthy monastic tradition is, in many ways, the lifeblood of the Church in general. In The Sayings of the Desert Fathers, which I don't have handy right now, one of the fathers is quoted as saying "Because of young boys, many monasteries are deserted". And today, we have the controversy surrounding Holy Transfiguration Monastery (HOCNA), the destruciton of Christ of the Hills monastery, and I'm sorry to say, a litany of other monasteries very negatively impacted by reports of sexual (not just homosexual) activity. There is a pernicious suseptability in a closed environment of unquestioning obedience and trust that can be very easily violated with disastrous consequences. I don't think we need to get into the specifics, but what has happened to the Catholic Church should certainly be a warning as to what can happen without vigilance at every level. I don't think that we arm-chair theologians are equipped to solve the problem, but it is a concern for those who look to the monasteries for spiritual guidance and trust, especially if we expect those monasteries to provide our bishops!
I don't have any answers, but I think it prudent to ask our bishops what safeguards are being implemented and enforced to combat sexual misconduct of all kinds and protect against false allegations of the same for those entrusted with authority and looked to for direction. I do not think it has been given the level of attention it deserves, and the Church suffers because of it in many tangible and intangible ways. It destroys monasteries, parishes, even dioceses.
Herman the sad Pooh
Eric Peterson
03-11-2009, 07:39 PM
Herman,
I'm not completely convinced that this particular problem of which you speak affecting monasteries is any more prevalent today than it ever was. I think the safeguard against it is, as with other evils, faithful adherence to tradition. By this, we avoid the evils that come from cult behavior and witch hunts.
Herman Blaydoe
03-11-2009, 07:59 PM
Herman,
I'm not completely convinced that this particular problem of which you speak affecting monasteries is any more prevalent today than it ever was. I think the safeguard against it is, as with other evils, faithful adherence to tradition. By this, we avoid the evils that come from cult behavior and witch hunts.
I am not saying it is a worse problem now, in fact I am saying the opposite, that it has been an issue since ancient times (the quote from the Desert Fathers). However, the consequences of the problem now do need to be (and can be) dealt with now. I don't think it appropriate to go into elaborate details here, but it is indeed a pernicious issue with far-reaching ramifications, and things can be done in the current environment to help ensure faithful adherence to tradition while avoiding witch hunts beyond simply "trusting" that "somebody" is taking care of it, because quite frankly, "they" haven't been.
And that is all I have to say about that (in this forum).
Herman the Forrest Gump-channelin' Pooh
Jonathan Michael
03-11-2009, 11:06 PM
We would not look down on an alcoholic who avoided alcohol; we should not look down on... a homosexual who...
... avoided closed communities of men?
The monastics of the Orthodox Church are a vital and necessary part of the world's salvation, yet I don't think anyone would posit that everyone's individual path of salvation lie in becoming a monastic. I certainly do not, and so by saying that difficulties may arise when someone struggling with homosexuality enters a close community of people of the same sex, I am not thereby saying this someone is beyond redemption. I marvel that such caveats even need to be written out.
Although Eric didn't mean to put forward this point, he has actually hit the nail on the head by bringing up the example of an alcoholic. We certainly should not look down upon an alcoholic for avoiding wine and spirits, in fact we would probably suggest such an avoidance as the best course of action. So why so squeamish at suggesting someone fighting homosexual passions from steering clear of closed same-sex communities? What Herman brings up about sexual abuse is a slightly different subject, as this encompasses people of all sexual persuasions. My point was related to how the homosexual himself would struggle inside a monastery, much like an alcoholic in an off-licence.
Again I will say, I am not dealing in absolutisms. I am sure there are many recovered alcoholics who live and work around alcohol with great success, having been freed of their particular passion. Likewise we know there are monastics who previously struggled with homosexual passions, yet live/have lived God-pleasing lives.
M.C. Steenberg
03-11-2009, 11:39 PM
Dear all,
I'm not entirely sure I follow this discussion. To the question, 'Is homosexuality an obstacle to monastic life?' the answer is 'no'. This pertains in the same sense that no sin, and no struggle with sin, closes off the possibility of this path if it is that to which one is called by God - a point made early on by Father David - and which assumes, of course, that one acknowledges sin as sin and works to struggle against, rather than accept, it.
To the question, regarding any particular person, 'does this person's struggle with homosexuality pose an obstacle to his or her entering a monastery?', the answer is, 'this is a personal and pastoral question, which requires discernment and the guidance of a spiritual father'. What may prove a healthy context or defeating obstacle is different to each person; there is no global, universal answer to such a question.
INXC, Dcn Matthew
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