Icons and prayers to the Father

[Ryan]

Since it is improper to make icons of the Father, is it acceptable to direct prayers to the Father (such as the 'Our Father') toward icons of Christ, "the express image of his person"? And what of the Holy Spirit?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Since it is improper to make icons of the Father, is it acceptable to direct prayers to the Father (such as the 'Our Father') toward icons of Christ, "the express image of his person"? And what of the Holy Spirit?

We are not praying "to" the icon, as far as I am given to understand. When we pray the "Our Father" while standing in front of the icon of Christ, we are addressing the Father in the presence of Christ. I doubt that Christ minds.

"O Heavenly King" is generally understood to be directed primarily to the Holy Spirit, that is why we do not say it between Pascha and Pentecost, since He has not yet come.

Or perhaps I am not quite understanding the question?

Herman the easily confused Pooh

[Owen]

You don't need an icon in front of you to say a prayer, but it helps. Christ, being the only Person of the Trinity Who took on flesh, is the only Person of the Trinity Who may be depicted in icons; the ancient modality of "to/from the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit" applies here, as Lossky might say, though without formal resort to this formula in prayer.

[Michael Woods]

I somewhat understand Herman's thought on addressing the Father in the presence of Christ and I doubt that Christ minds, as Christ is our mediator, God made flesh. "To/from the Father though the Son, in the Holy Spirit", as Dr. Owen's states.

But what of an icon of one of the Saints. How then does the prayer imply? Are we then praying to the Father, in the presence of Christ and in the presence of the Saint?

[Herman Blaydoe]

I somewhat understand Herman's thought on addressing the Father in the presence of Christ and I doubt that Christ minds, as Christ is our mediator, God made flesh. "To/from the Father though the Son, in the Holy Spirit", as Dr. Owen's states.

But what of an icon of one of the Saints. How then does the prayer imply? Are we then praying to the Father, in the presence of Christ and in the presence of the Saint?

What is implied when we pray with others? That they too, are praying. What does it imply when we ask a person to pray for us in the face of Christ the "only mediator" as the Apostle James commands us to do? It means they are praying to God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit even as we are and it "implies" that Christ has conquered death.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Barbara J.]

Since it is improper to make icons of the Father

I was in attendance at the services at the Holy Trinity monastery in Jordanville, NY, USA this past weekend. If I am not mistaken, and I'm willing to be corrected here, the icon at the apex of the altar there depicts God the Father with the Christ Child enclosed in a mandorla.
I have seen icons with depictions of God the Father in a similar fashion in other settings, including in the Holy Land.

[Paul Cowan]

But what of an icon of one of the Saints. How then does the prayer imply? Are we then praying to the Father, in the presence of Christ and in the presence of the Saint?

I've recently rediscovered the game of Monopoly (http://www.hasbro.com/monopoly/en_US/shop/details.cfm?guid=8EE05CCF-6D40-1014-8BF0-9EFBF894F9D4&product_id=9067&src=endeca). When praying before the icon of a Saint, (an icon being a window into Heaven) we are praying "through" the saint to God ie; Trinity, to hear our prayers. By praying before the icon of the saint we are invoking the Saint to also pray for us. We are multiplying our selves in perfect nonstop prayers by these holy people who are before God. I am discovering the power of multiples just as in Monopoly to win the game in my prayer life. I must sleep, so I can't pray 24/7. Even when awake, I get busy with life and stop. The saints don't sleep (neither do the demons) so there is a 24/7 spiritual warfare going on all around me. I need as many holy people especially Panaghia to pray to God for me.

We do not pray to the icon as Herman said. We pray though the saint via their icon to Christ God.

Paul

[Michael Woods]

I've recently rediscovered the game of Monopoly (http://www.hasbro.com/monopoly/en_US/shop/details.cfm?guid=8EE05CCF-6D40-1014-8BF0-9EFBF894F9D4&product_id=9067&src=endeca). When praying before the icon of a Saint, (an icon being a window into Heaven) we are praying "through" the saint to God ie; Trinity, to hear our prayers. By praying before the icon of the saint we are invoking the Saint to also pray for us. We are multiplying our selves in perfect nonstop prayers by these holy people who are before God. I am discovering the power of multiples just as in Monopoly to win the game in my prayer life. The saints don't sleep...

We do not pray to the icon as Herman said. We pray though the saint via their icon to Christ God.

Herman & Paul, I must say you do make it very easy to understand and I thank you for that.

When you talk about the game of Monoply, I think of St. Seraphim's words "Trade spiritually"..."God the Word, The God-Man, our Lord Jesus Christ, compares our life with the market, and the work of our life on earth he calls trading. He says to us all: "Trade till I come" (Lk. 19:13), "Buying up every oppurtunity, because the days are evil" (Ephesians 5:16). In other words, make the most of your time getting heavenly blessings..."

So just as we pray for others in our daily prayers, asking God to bless them with his Grace, mercy, will and understanding. Saints pray for us. Thus we trade Love for Love, one for another in prayer.

So when it comes right down to it. All we are doing is asking the Saints to help, intercede, pray for others and for us.

[Olga]

I was in attendance at the services at the Holy Trinity monastery in Jordanville, NY, USA this past weekend. If I am not mistaken, and I'm willing to be corrected here, the icon at the apex of the altar there depicts God the Father with the Christ Child enclosed in a mandorla.
I have seen icons with depictions of God the Father in a similar fashion in other settings, including in the Holy Land.

Barbara, the short answer to your query is that this image of Divine Paternity is not consistent with Orthodox iconographic canon. I have utmost respect for the monastic community at Jordanville, in fact, the chief iconographer who painted one of the churches in the city where I live was trained (in monasticism and in iconography) there. However, I have long grappled with the paradox of the persistence of such an image which is inconsistent with the liturgical, doctrinal and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church, despite there being clear and unambiguous church council rulings over several centuries on the erroneous nature of such portrayals.

You are welcome to PM me for more information. I'm also pretty sure that the matter of the iconographic depiction of God the Father as a bearded old man has been discussed on more than one thread here.