Prayers to the saints and Theotokos

[Caleb Shoemaker]

I'm not Orthodox, though I'm very drawn to the piety and teachings of the Church. I have a question about praying to Saints and to the Theotokos. I understand the concept and the principle, but I have a question of how one goes about this? I would get confused (personally, only) as to whom I was praying if I started about praying to a saint. I wouldn't want to direct the prayers to the wrong person, if that makes sense. What does one ask? How does one going about praying to a saint in order to ask for their prayers? It seems a little muddy in my mind, and I'd like some clarity.

[Owen]

To pray is to ask/request. The most basic form of prayer to a Saint is, "St. X, intercede to God for (name of person/cause)...."

Be mindful that, while intercession to specific Saints for specific causes has become popular among the Orthodox, the list of intercessors for specific causes (Patron Saints) is only semi-official; unlike the Roman Catholics, we do not make exhaustive, official lists of Patron Saints.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I'm not Orthodox, though I'm very drawn to the piety and teachings of the Church. I have a question about praying to Saints and to the Theotokos. I understand the concept and the principle, but I have a question of how one goes about this? I would get confused (personally, only) as to whom I was praying if I started about praying to a saint. I wouldn't want to direct the prayers to the wrong person, if that makes sense. What does one ask? How does one going about praying to a saint in order to ask for their prayers? It seems a little muddy in my mind, and I'd like some clarity.

The absolutely best way would be to get an Orthodox prayer book. In learning the prayers of the Church you also learn the theology of the Church. It won't answer all of your questions, but I suspect it will help you figure out the right questions to ask.

The simplest prayer to the saints is "Holy Saint {name}, pray for me, a sinner!" and
"Most Holy Theotokos (or 'Mother of God') pray for me a sinner!"

Beyond that, any Orthodox book of prayer, and attendance at a few Orthodox services in a language you can comprehend, will give you the basics.

Herman

[M.C. Steenberg]

A fitting 'crash course' in this would be one of the akathist hymns (a number of them are found in the liturgics library here; many others in this Discussion Community), which are wonderful examples of the way prayer to the saints addresses them together with God in Trinity.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Caleb Shoemaker]

A fitting 'crash course' in this would be one of the akathist hymns (a number of them are found in the liturgics library here; many others in this Discussion Community), which are wonderful examples of the way prayer to the saints addresses them together with God in Trinity.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Is that the basic idea? The default prayer is "Holy Saint, X, intercede for..." and if you want to pray deeper you pray an akathist? I'm confused about the relationship that I hear people talking about. It seems so intimate and so deep as they describe their devotion to the Mother of God or to a particular saint and how much closer it has brought them to Jesus. Is it just a matter of do and see?

[Paul Cowan]

Is that the basic idea? The default prayer is "Holy Saint, X, intercede for..." and if you want to pray deeper you pray an akathist? I'm confused about the relationship that I hear people talking about. It seems so intimate and so deep as they describe their devotion to the Mother of God or to a particular saint and how much closer it has brought them to Jesus. Is it just a matter of do and see?

Yes. Do you have a special family member you talk to or confide in more than another? Same in the spiritual realm. My namesake is the Apostle Paul. However, I find I have a closer connection to St. John the Forerunner and St. Mary of Egypt. How do I defiled and sinful dare, but I must, reach out to Christ? How do we in our mortal lives find our selves in a similar situation with "the big boss" at work or in a position we are scared or nervous to approach someone? Do we not ask for advice of another on the best method of approach and for their moral support as we go for "the big interview" or whatever since it is possible they have done this once or twice in their own lives?

Why would we not ask those who have gone before us for the same help to God?

Paul

[Caleb Shoemaker]

Yes. Do you have a special family member you talk to or confide in more than another? Same in the spiritual realm. ...Do we not ask for advice of another on the best method of approach and for their moral support as we go for "the big interview" or whatever since it is possible they have done this once or twice in their own lives?

Why would we not ask those who have gone before us for the same help to God?

Paul

And as I've said, I have no problem with the concept. I don't feel any personal irk against praying to the saints, asking for their intercession, etc. There's something in the actual practice that seems to elude me. I want to understand it.

[Michael Stickles]

Is that the basic idea? The default prayer is "Holy Saint, X, intercede for..." and if you want to pray deeper you pray an akathist? I'm confused about the relationship that I hear people talking about. It seems so intimate and so deep as they describe their devotion to the Mother of God or to a particular saint and how much closer it has brought them to Jesus. Is it just a matter of do and see?

Prayers can also be more free-form (i.e., your own words), although when starting out it is usually best to stay with the known prayers and allow them, through repeated usage, to teach you how to pray.

And yes, "do and see" is probably the best approach. Back a few months before becoming a catechumen, I remember being moved to pray one of the akathists to the Theotokos - which was rather odd, since I still had some serious misgivings about the Orthodox devotion to her (I actually had to spend some time first praying to God about the propriety of praying to the Theotokos!). Eventually I was able to pray the akathist, and it was in relating to her through that akathist prayer that my misgivings were resolved (not just in some kind of "warm-fuzziness", either; I mean that, in seeing her a bit more clearly, I could see specifically why my objections were groundless).

Of course, you shouldn't necessarily expect to experience a relationship which is "so intimate and so deep", as you put it, right away. I know that in just over two years combined of seeking, catechumenate, and being Orthodox, I still wouldn't characterize my relationships with any of the saints that way, but that doesn't surprise me at all. In any kind of relationship - be it with a saint, a wife, a neighbor, or whoever - depth and intimacy take time (usually lots of time).

In Christ,
Michael

[Mary]

And as I've said, I have no problem with the concept. I don't feel any personal irk against praying to the saints, asking for their intercession, etc. There's something in the actual practice that seems to elude me. I want to understand it.

You can't understand it. It's a relationship. It is beyond the logic zone. =)

Like all earthly relationship, it takes time to grow, it also changes with time. You find that you instantly 'click' with some people, and with others you don't, even if you do hold them in high regard. Same with the saints. We respect them all and venerate them all, and yet, with some you 'click' and you spend more time with them.

I don't know if it is the actual words of a prayer or an akathist that aids in building a relationship, or just the fact that you run to them for help. They become a presence in your life, because you're always going to them. And sometimes they seem a lot closer than at other times. Like they've gone away to work and you have to wait till they come home before you can dump on them again.

Why don't you read the lives of the saints and find one whom you really admire a lot and read more about him/her and the prayers written to them? Also, in relation to the Theotokos, I've asked her, and continue to ask her, to help me understand her role in my life and how i am to relate to her, because, I really don't know. But I do find a lot of comfort in asking her to help me raise my children, because I know I'm a lousy mother, and she is a great mother.

in Christ,
Mary.

[Caleb Shoemaker]

Why don't you read the lives of the saints and find one whom you really admire a lot and read more about him/her and the prayers written to them?

in Christ,
Mary.

Do you have a good suggestion as to where to start. The biographical blurbs on abbamoses.com and goarch.org are good, but not really indepth enough to make you feel like you've actually been introduced to somebody.

[Mary]

Do you have a good suggestion as to where to start. The biographical blurbs on abbamoses.com and goarch.org are good, but not really indepth enough to make you feel like you've actually been introduced to somebody.

Caleb,

some saints are well known and others aren't so well known. I think, of all the ones I've read, St Mary of Egypt is the one with the most complete story! Of course, really popular saints have more complete stories too, and those who wrote books or had spiritual children who wrote books about them. Others, who were totally ignored till after they died - have very short stories, most of it being what they did after they died. And sometimes, the only account we have of a saint isn't from an orthodox source! Like the story of St Martin of Tours - the most extensive account of his story is in a protestant book on church fathers. There's a little blurb of explanation in the first page that tries to 'excuse' all the miracles attributed to him, because it is inconceivable for a protestant mind that miracles can be as common as breathing every day.

oca.org has a list of daily saints. Sometimes, they list a name and say that no information is available about that saint! Also - the prologue from ohrid (http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/my.html)- I think that's how it's spelled - is one of my favorites.

A lot of times, what I do is, if I find out a little bit about a saint who fascinates me, I google the name and read everything that comes up. I was told, when reading hagiography, to keep my eyes open for some pious exaggerations. Like the story of St Nicholas - in one account, we're told that even as an infant, while still being breast fed - he would fast on wednesdays and fridays!

I think, all saints were human. If being human wasn't too shameful for Christ himself, who became a man and suffered as we do, experienced hunger and thrist and tiredness, etc as we do... then there's nothing shameful about saints being human, and babies crying and making messes and being hungry all the time.

Also, if you don't find enough online info about a particular saint, start a thread about them, and someone is bound to help you with more info. I was gorging myself on everything I could find about St John the Baptist. There's not a whole lot about him, but thankfully, he's quite popular in the church too, so there are services and prayers to find, on days that he is commemorated. There's also a tiny booklet about his teachings - forgot the name of it now - but sometimes, a tiny bit is all you need. Like a gem. Small in size, but more valuable than a boulder.

I hope others will add more links with more favorite sites for saint stories, because I havne't really searched for everything that there is. I've only mentioned the ones that I'm familiar with. Hope that's helpful. =)

in Christ,
mary.

One more thing - icons. Sometimes you don't need anything other than an icon. Have you been to an orthodox church yet? Spend some time looking at the icons, ask questions about them. Every thing about an icon tells a little story about them. If you see them holding crosses, they were martyrs. The shapes of their head gear, will tell you if they were royalty or monastics or ordinary folk, and so forth.

[Mary]

Oh - one more important thing. One other thing that was really helpful to me, was to revisit my favorite people from the Old Testament and the New Testament, that I was already familiar with, and look at them from the orthodox point of view. For instance, Daniel's 3 friends, who are known as the Three Holy Youths (yes, they found the fountain of youth!) =) - there is a prayer they prayed before being thrown into the furnace, that has been preserved in the orthodox church. It is the most awesome prayer! First time I heard it, it made me cry, because it brought these 3 men to life, like none of the stories I already knew. But then, it makes me cry every time, because it is so beautiful.

And in the new testament - I'd always wondered what happened? Where did they go? The Centurion at the cross who said: "Surely this is the son of God" - did he become a Christian? He did! And later he was martyred. We even know his name! (I'll let you find out). What happened to Zaccheus? Onesimus didn't remain a slave forever... there's more to his life.

Find out where the Apostles went and who their disciples were, and that will help you build a connection to the saints that came later on. The story didn't end with Acts... it goes on and on and on... track it! That way, the saints aren't random people dotting history, they become a part of those we knew from the Bible, and us.

Hope this is helpful.

in Christ,
Mary.

[Michael Stickles]

Do you have a good suggestion as to where to start. The biographical blurbs on abbamoses.com and goarch.org are good, but not really indepth enough to make you feel like you've actually been introduced to somebody.

Since I see by your profile that you live in the U.S.A., might I suggest some of the Saints of North America? Here are a few online lives which aren't overly brief.

St. Herman of Alaska:
- At Bishop Alexander's Orthodox Christian Booklets page (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/herman.htm).
- At Pravoslavie.ru (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/st-herman-alaska.htm).
- At The Orthodox Church in America (http://www.oca.org/FS.NA-Saint.asp?SID=4&Saint=Herman).

St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco:
- At Bishop Alexander's Orthodox Christian Booklets page (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/johnmx1.htm).
- At St. John The Wonderworker Orthodox Church (http://saintjohnwonderworker.org/lifeidx.htm).

St. Raphael of Brooklyn:
- At The Orthodox Church in America (http://www.oca.org/FS.NA-Saint.asp?SID=4&Saint=Raphael).
- At Antiochian Village (http://www.antiochianvillage.org/camp/liturgical/patron/straphael.html).
- At Pravoslavie.ru (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/straphael.htm).

St. Tikhon of Moscow, Enlightener of North America:
- At The Orthodox Church in America (http://www.oca.org/FS.NA-Saint.asp?SID=4&Saint=Tikhon).

St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre:
- At St. Tikhon of Zadonsk Monastery (http://sttikhonsmonastery.org/st_alexis_wilkes_barre1.html).

Besides these, here are a few others whom I have a personal fondness for:

St. Mary of Egypt and St. Zosimas:
- At Orthodox Christian Fellowship (http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/st.mary.html).

St. Athanasius the Great:
- At Christian Classics Ethereal Library (http://www.ccel.org/a/athanasius/).
- At World Invisible (http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/athanasius/incarnation/incarnation.b.htm).

St. John Chrysostom:
- At Cornerstone Magazine (http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/Nov98/StJohnChrysostom.htm).
- At The Orthodox Church in America (http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsLife.asp?FSID=103292).
- At the St. John Chrysostom 1600th Anniversary (http://chrysostom1600.org/index.php/life/) website.

St. Ambrose of Milan:
- At Christian Classics Ethereal Library (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf210.iii.v.html).
- At New Advent (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01383c.htm) (Roman Catholic site).

In Christ,
Michael

[Owen]

My patron Saint, Eugene of Cherson, gets only a brief line or two in the Synaxarion. Two that have always piqued my interest are St. Lydia of Thyatira (St. Paul's first convert on Greece) and St. Hermione (eldest of the four virgin daughters of St. Philip the deacon). The latter has a nice bio in the Synaxarion.