Does Matthew 6:7 (on vain repetition) contradict Orthodox practice of Jesus Prayer?

[J. K. Amra]

Christ says in Matthew 6:7

"And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words."

Isn't this what Orthodox hesychasm essentially is? The repitition of the "Jesus Prayer"?

I know 1 Thessalonians 5:17 supports the idea, when it states that we should "pray without ceasing" but I feel that Matthew 6:7 comes in conflict with hesychasm and prayer repititions.

Can someone explain?

Thanks.

[Cyprian (Humphrey)]

Christ says in Matthew 6:7

"And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words."

Isn't this what Orthodox hesychasm essentially is?

No. It's not.

And as for the assumed condemnation of repetitions, please re-read the verse carefully.

What is condemned is vanity - not repetition.

[Michael Stickles]

If repetitious prayer is wrong, what are we to say about Christ's parable of the persistent widow in Luke 18:1-8 (emphasis added)?



Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: "In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, 'Grant me justice against my adversary.'

"For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, 'Even though I don't fear God or care about men, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won't eventually wear me out with her coming!' "

And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"


The word translated "use vain repetitions" in Matthew 6 is a form of the Greek battologeo, which means "to babble, use vain repetitions". The word translated "cry out" in Luke 18 is a form of boao, meaning "to utter a loud cry (from joy or grief); to call on (someone), to call to aid; to demand in a loud voice; to proclaim". So, it seems to me, the difference is not in the fact of being repetitive, but in what is being repeated - not just referring to the words themselves, but also to the attitude and the faith (or lack thereof) of the one praying.

In Christ,
Michael

[Kusanagi]

The Jesus prayer is not vain like the heathens. It is a hope in God's mercy.

[Owen]

Considering that the Greek verb in question, battalogeo, occurs only once in the Bible, we should be very wary of how we translate the word. We have to go entirely by context here: "And when you pray, do not babble as the heathen do, for they think that they shall be heard for their many words." The pithy Lord's Prayer follows.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Christ says in Matthew 6:7

"And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words."

Isn't this what Orthodox hesychasm essentially is? The repitition of the "Jesus Prayer"?

I know 1 Thessalonians 5:17 supports the idea, when it states that we should "pray without ceasing" but I feel that Matthew 6:7 comes in conflict with hesychasm and prayer repititions.

Can someone explain?

Thanks.

If you can explain how the Jesus Prayer is different than the prayer of the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14, then we can look at how the Jesus Prayer violates or does not violate the spirit of Matthew 6:7.

As others have mentioned, you might want to consider that our Lord is talking about VAIN repetitions, not merely repeated prayer. I would contend that the Publican referred to in Luke, who probably has prayed his prayer before, is likely more guilty of vain repetitions than the tax collector, and remember who went home justified.

Herman the Pooh

[Michael Stickles]

We have to go entirely by context here: "And when you pray, do not babble as the heathen do, for they think that they shall be heard for their many words."

A few translations do use that wording or something similar:


ESV: "And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words."
NIRV: "When you pray, do not keep talking on and on the way ungodly people do. They think they will be heard because they talk a lot."
Wycliffe: "But in praying do not ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they guess that they be heard in their much speech."
That makes the hesychastic use of the Jesus Prayer a perfect embodiment of what Jesus is saying in both Matthew 6:7 and Luke 18:1-8. It's short and to the point, and it's repeated "day and night".

In Christ,
Michael

[Eric Peterson]

Also, I think it also depends on whether or not your heart is in what you are praying. Of course, there are endless cyclical arguments that go nowhere--do you only pray, for example, when you are "moved?" This will not do you any good. You learn from repetition. Prayer, being converse with God, builds the relationship and makes it stronger. It is possible to pray any prayer in a vain way, as in doing it in vain, but even moments of inattention in prayer do good for the soul because even consciousness is no barrier to prayer.

[Antonios]

Isn't this what Orthodox hesychasm essentially is? The repitition of the "Jesus Prayer"?


Dear J.K.,

The Jesus Prayer is a time tested and proven method of prayer to seek unity in Christ. However, we shouldn't assume that's what hesychasm 'is'. The life of stillness (hesychasm) is a state of being, of true living, in communion with the saints before the Glory of the Father. A life in the world, but also above the world. Which the Mother of God herself makes visitations and the angels are our keepers. Theosis is a 'repetition' for the greatest of the spiritual athletes in the desert, a life constantly striving to behold the Light of God and share in His Love and Glory.

There is no vanity in true hesychia, and there is definitely no 'vain repetitions'.

In Christ,
Antonios

[M.C. Steenberg]

Christ is saying that those who say a prayer over and over again, in the belief that God will more quickly or compassionately hear them because of the many repetitions, are simply being vain. God does not listen more attentively if one says a prayer ten times than if one says it once.

But the Jesus Prayer is not repeated for these reasons. We do not say it many times to gain God's ear; we drop these words upon the heart a thousand times, ten-thousand, for a whole lifetime, so that they may etch away at our hard hearts and soften them so that we might, if even just once, receive the Lord rather than resist him.

[Rick H.]

Now I am curious. Are we saying here that this "method" is what the Apostle Paul was writing about when he wrote that we should pray without ceasing?

[Michael Stickles]

Now I am curious. Are we saying here that this "method" is what the Apostle Paul was writing about when he wrote that we should pray without ceasing?

I think it would be more accurate to say that it is one way (and a potentially quite effective way) to fulfill that command.

[Rick H.]

I think it would be more accurate to say that it is one way (and a potentially quite effective way) to fulfill that command.

We might need a new thread . . . but, I wonder what some other methods would be in addition to this one which would fullfil the command to pray without ceasing? Although, I'm not fully persuaded that Paul was speaking of methods in this passage.

[Paul Cowan]

Now I am curious. Are we saying here that this "method" is what the Apostle Paul was writing about when he wrote that we should pray without ceasing?

It just so happens, my next chapter to read in Unseen Warfare is chapter fifty titled, On short prayers, or short prayerful sighings to God.

St. John Chrysostom says one should not use more than 24 of these short prayers to "avoid confusion and your memory and attention run from one to another. To have more than one is good for variety and to liven spiritual taste but in using them one should not pass from one to another to quickly". These short prayers can be taken from the Psalter or ones that you make up for your particular situation. They should be formulated so they are easy to remember and in time are said of themselves in your heart.

It specifically references the 24 short prayers of St. John in our prayer book. The very next chapter is on The Jesus Prayer.

Paul

[Andreas Moran]

The Jesus Prayer is for our benefit, not God's. It is we who need to repeat to ourselves the meanings in its two parts; the acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord, the Christ, the Son of God, and our need as sinners for His mercy. The repeated use of the prayer creates and nurtures within us a disposition to accept Christ's mercy which is always on offer.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Rick, you wrote:


Now I am curious. Are we saying here that this "method" is what the Apostle Paul was writing about when he wrote that we should pray without ceasing?

A very good question! And the answer is, 'No: precisely the opposite'. It is precisely because it is impossible to pray 'without ceasing' a prayer of repeated words, that we learn the work of the Jesus Prayer is to move beyond words to the true and uninterrupted prayer of the heart.

The Jesus Prayer is a tool that works toward the condition of unceasing prayer that St Paul commands; but it is not that state itself.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Andreas Moran]

And, of course, we do not seek states - that would be to ask for a gift.

[Rick H.]

The Jesus Prayer is a tool that works toward the condition of unceasing prayer that St Paul commands; but it is not that state itself.




There's that word "tool" again! Good word that tool. :)

Thanks very much for the excellent answer Fr. Dcn. Yes, the "Jesus Prayer" is a tool, "prayer of the heart" is something else.

[J. K. Amra]

Hi everyone, thank you for all the replies, I did not in any way mean to reffer to the "Jesus Prayer" as vain babbling, so sorry if I came across that way to some people.

[Peter S.]

There's that word "tool" again! Good word that tool. :)

Thanks very much for the excellent answer Fr. Dcn. Yes, the "Jesus Prayer" is a tool, "prayer of the heart" is something else.

The tradition has found out that the words in the Jesusprayer is the best way to pray with the heart. The Jesusprayer is called "the prayer of the heart", and it is the same kind of prayer. To pray with the heart is a tool also.

[Rick H.]

The Jesusprayer is called "the prayer of the heart", and it is the same kind of prayer. To pray with the heart is a tool also.



I think this is a mishmash Peter. But, I will defer to the veterans here in terms of correction.

[Ryan]

I'm not a veteran, but Rick is right- there is a difference between the Jesus prayer and the prayer of the heart. Prayer of the heart is more like a state of prayer which can be attained with the Jesus prayer, but if I am just mumbling the words inattentively, then I'm not engaged in prayer of the heart.

[Paul Cowan]

I wish I could just retype Unseen Warfare for you. There are several chapters on prayer, the Jesus Prayer and how prayer affects prayer of the heart. St. Serphim of Sarov said our goal in this life was the acquisition of the Holy Spirit. How do we acquire Him? Through trading spiritual gifts. Prayer of the heart is one of these spiritual gifts. How do we achieve this gift? One way is through the Jesus Prayer or other short memorizable prayers that over time will happen of their own accord. Pray without ceasing. It is not us, in the end, praying, but our hearts with groans and utterances the Spirit understands.

It's easier to talk about it.

Paul

[Peter S.]

I wish I could just retype Unseen Warfare for you. There are several chapters on prayer, the Jesus Prayer and how prayer affects prayer of the heart. St. Serphim of Sarov said our goal in this life was the acquisition of the Holy Spirit. How do we acquire Him? Through trading spiritual gifts. Prayer of the heart is one of these spiritual gifts. How do we achieve this gift? One way is through the Jesus Prayer or other short memorizable prayers that over time will happen of their own accord. Pray without ceasing. It is not us, in the end, praying, but our hearts with groans and utterances the Spirit understands.

It's easier to talk about it.

Paul

Yes Rick and Paul you are right.

But to pray with the heart is not the ending point. There are more levels of perfection. In this way I ment it is a tool. However to pray with the heart is a gift as you said so maybe this is wrong too. I have read that it feels like being in a too little room at first which you dont like to be in, but then it feels good. And you are shedding tears and feels a warmth. And it is a light. I read Philokalia and Palamas about the Jesusprayer once, and did what was standing there just as a manual (at least I was trying), and was surprised that it worked after a bit of work of mine. God gave it in his way in my case. I know it is not just words in these books that I can doubt about this prayer. Usually I pray the Jesusprayer almost as vain repetition. But God is there.

In Christ
Peter

[Paul Cowan]

Unseen Warfare Ch.47 What is mental or inner prayer, and of what kinds can it be?


You are sure to have heard these expressions: prayer with words, prayer with the mind, prayer with the heart and maybe you have heard explanations of each of them separately. What is this reason for division of prayer into its component parts? The reason is that owing to our negligence it sometimes happens that the tongue says the holy words of prayer, while the mind wanders away somewhere: or the mind understands the words of prayer, but the heart does not repsond to them with feeling. In the first case prayer is merely words, and is not prayer at all; in the second- prayer with words is conected with mental prayer, and this is imperfect, incomplete prayer. Full and real prayer is when praying words and praying thoughts are combined with praying feelings.

There also exists, through the grace of God, prayer of the heart only, and this is spiritual prayer, which the Holy Spirit moves in the heart: the man who prays is conscious of it, but does not do it; it acts by itself. This prayer belongs to the perfect. The form of prayer accessible to all and demanded of all is the form where mind and feeling are always combined with words of prayer.

There is yet another form of prayer, which is called standing in the presence of God, when the man who prays is wholly concentrated in his heart and inwardly contemplates God as being present to him and within him, with corresponding feelings- either of fear of God and the feelings of wonder and awe before His greatness, or of faith and hope, or of love and submission to His will, or of contrition and readiness for any sacrifice.

And much more in this and subsequent chapters, but does give an outline of where I am in relation to my prayer. I am in the "not prayer at all" category.

Paul

[Ben Johnson]

Coming from a protestant background, I pondered about repetition somewhat, but the book: Way of a Pilgrim and the Pilgrim Continues His Way, convinced me otherwise
Ben