Monasticism, financial instability, and family

[J. K. Amra]

Hi, sorry if this is somehow out of the scope of topic of this forum, but I would like to have some opinions on a couple of questions that I feel have not been answered yet (or I am just being selfish because they refer to my personal position), even though I recognize the existence of similar threads to this one.

If you do not wish to read a lot, I suggest reading the 'long story short' question at the bottom of this thread, you can read the details if you wish to - they might give you a clearer picture of the circumstances, any input you can give will be greatly appreciated.

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I've had a desire to be a monastic for maybe a year or more, I realize that it is not a long time, but feel that its not really a matter of time but that of the degree of how great a person's desire is.

First, how do I know/test that this is a true calling and not some kind of a phase that I am going through? Could you give some advice on what I could do? I know most phases don't last more than a few months, and I'm very young (late teens), so it seems to a lot of people that its silly that I would think these thoughts. I don't feel that I should visit many number of monasteries because I feel that the process of deciding from many options would eventually desynthesize and destroy my calling (if this is what it is).

Second, I realize that the Bible is not big on "staying with your family", rather than taking up the cross and following Christ while forsaking everything (Mathew 19:27-29, Luke 14:33, Luke 12:33-34) and everyone (including family) except Him. Specifically stating that "anyone who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me" in Matt. 10:37. Although I see no conflict in these verse in regards to how I feel about them, my family (which consists of my mother and an older brother) isn't religious and does not really support my adherence to the Orthodox Christian faith to the degree of zealoussness at which I consider myself involved at, (despite considering themselves to being believers in God), and does not know about my desire in regards to monasticism, because I fear (and know) that they will not approve of it.

I do not feel that I should tell them about this desire. Legally, does it matter if they approve or not, seeing as how I am 18+? I know that parental approval is not necessary for taking monastic vows, but I somehow feel that their sure (would be) disapproval is preventing me in progressing, and, if it comes to their knowledge, will most likely dissapoint them to the point where they (knowing of my departure) would either kick me out, or prevent me from leaving and/or testing my calling.

Third, my family is going through financial instability, not something surprising seeing as how I realize that everyone else is going through the same in this economy (some people are even losing their houses). My deparchure will most likely cripple their current socio-economic position, because they kind of depend on me getting a job (once I graduate) and help them out. I do pray to God constantly asking him to at least give us some kind of security, or something to fall back on, so that I may be able to leave with a good conscience, but would it still be forsaking them if the financial circumstances of my deparchure were any less problematic than they are now? Or does it work the other way around? Will God not accept me as I am if I leave my family in financial distress?

Fourth, I realize the fact that monasticism does not guarantee salvation, as St. Theofan the Recluse says, it's better to be a monk in the world than a layperson in a monastery. I do, however, feel that people who are taking a long time in making the decision (visiting many different monasteries to see which they are most comfortable with, and still cannot decide) are only hurting themselves. Is it really about the 'atmosphere of the monastery' or the chance that monasticism gives you in order to do God's will, repent, and show your dedication to His Word, regardless of what the atmosphere around you is? This emotional decision is of course somewhat different from picking a convent that is under a right believing Bishop, because nobody really wants to be a part of a monastery that does not follow the tradition properly.

This leads me to my fifth, and final question, I believe that I have a choice between two countries, U.S.A. and Russia, regarding my monastery of choice (or, technically, their choice of me). If you were to pick one of the two based on the estimate of how many monasteries you feel are following the tradition more precisely, which one would you pick? I've heard that it is very hard, if not next to impossible, to find a monastery in Russia that is legit. - Is this true? (I have a chance at visiting Russia in the next year or so, and will ask a father who baptized me if he can recommend a monastery that will allow me to spend a couple of days there).


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Long story short - I feel that if I stay with my family (and this city) any longer, it will have a negative effect on my spirituality and that I will eventually lose the calling (if I keep putting the decision off), because I am going through an important phase in my life right now. I don't want to ponder for the rest of my life in the misery of the "What could of been?" scenario, and I feel that eternal life and salvation in Jesus Christ is much more important to strive for than the financial well-being and stability of those who you're supposed to forsake, though I fear that God will not accept me if I leave my family, and feel that my decision, if it be made known to my family members, will result in them creating specific obstacles that will eventually prevent me from working towards monasticism, at the same time, I feel guilty about keeping this a secret from them because it seems as though I am lying to them about my future, and feel that my exposure to many different monasteries will eventually desynthesize my desire and confuse me even more.

In reference (?) to a quote in comment from "Abbot Haralambos Dionysiatis, The Teacher of Noetic Prayer" by Monk Joseph Dionysiatis, 1st English edition, 2004" made by Fr. Seraphim (Black), in a thread started by him, called "Monasticism and spiritual fatherhood", I might be taking this out of context, "
If you want to become a monk here, stay. You are welcome. However, if you leave now, the door here is shut."
'What has happened to me! Elder, I came here with a plan.'
"Plan? Monk and plan! Where did you find such monasticism with wills and plans?"

and Saint Isaac the Syrian when he said
Take hold of your life before your light grows dark and you seek help and do not find it. This life has been given to you for repentance; do not waste it in vain pursuits.



Christ said "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?"

I say, what does it profit a man to gain absolutely nothing from the world and still lose his soul?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[Paul Cowan]

First---I don't recall reading of any of the saints that did not visit a few monasteries before they settled in, well, no I take that back there were 2 brothers that drew lots to see which would go where, but they still knew of them. God's callings doesn't diminish over time. Re-read Jonah.

Second---We must follow OUR callings. Not those of our families. It is OUR salvation we are wroking out, not theirs. AND many saints were asked by their families to take care of them until they died before entering the monastery. We are not to turn our backs on our families, but we can make sure we are not throwing them into the streets too.

Third---Bluntly but, what would happen to them if you died tomorrow? They will find a way to survive. We must leave all in God's hands yet not claiming Corbin. (giving money to the temple rather than taking care of your parents with it.) I can't seem to find the verse at the moment. but it is when Jesus was flambasting the pharisees.

Fourth---Actually it is you who will be on trial for membership and not the monastery. They are not waiting at the gate tapping their foot saying" where is he, I wish he would hurry up and get here". You will have to prove to them you are worthy to be a member of the brotherhood and not think they will accept you just because you come knocking. You really need to visit several monasteries and talk to the holy fathers so you fully understand what you are considering.

Fifth---No, Your legit question is totally false. These monasteries would be the exception and not the rule. But others need to chime in here. As far as chosing between the US and Russia, I would have to choose Romania. They have more monasteries than any other Christian country in the world. You can ask Fr. Seraphim who you quoted above.

When I visited Mount Athos, I was drawn to two of the monasteries I visited. St. Panteleimon (Russian) and St. Paul (Greek). And then there was also Iveron, Xeropotamou, Koutloumousiou, Megisti Lavra, Simonopetra, Karakallou, Grigoriou, Dionisiou that all had a profound affect on me. Go visit, make friends and ask alot of questions.

Paul

[J. K. Amra]

Fourth---Actually it is you who will be on trial for membership and not the monastery. They are not waiting at the gate tapping their foot saying" where is he, I wish he would hurry up and get here". You will have to prove to them you are worthy to be a member of the brotherhood and not think they will accept you just because you come knocking. You really need to visit several monasteries and talk to the holy fathers so you fully understand what you are considering.
Paul

I realize this, thats exactly what I meant when I said "technically, their choice of me".

[Paul Cowan]

I was a die hard American until I went to Athos. Once there, I was ready to give up my American citizenship on the spot. Not that being a Greek citizen is what I was aspiring to be, but once there, I realized what it meant to not to want to be "of" the world. I pondered this new thought alot while I was there and at one point I felt more free than ever before to know being American was not the end all of my existence. I was prepared to give my allegance to God on the spot and not miss baseball, apple pie and Chevrolet again.

The worse this country falls into the abyss we now find ourselves in, the more I am rather eager to jump ship and head to a real christian country where even though they may be socialised, they are not afraid or reluctant to worship God in the streets. But alas, I am married to a wonderful woman who would not survive a move such as this. So, I wait. God willing at some point in the future, I will be back on an airplane headed overseas with all I own in a napsack on my back.

Paul

[Ilaria]

I've had a desire to be a monastic for maybe a year or more First thing I'd like to tell you - one can not be monastic for a year or more... It is like marriage, though much more.
So, it is a wonderful thought;however, you have to pray a lot in order to test it; after a lot of prayer, when you'll feel inside that you can not live without, get the best advice from your SF; pray before asking, and ask for it only in the sacrament of confession; ask God to inspire your father;whatever he will say, easy or hard for you, it will be God will

I'd like to share one of the best advises I ever received, from a good monastic I have here; she's like an Amma for me
Two years ago, we were in hospital, my "Amma" was seriously ill, she lost a lot of blood; I was helping her. it was the Passion week. After two days of treatment, the doctor came and told her "you have to start eating meat, I want you to eat liver"
after the doctor left, she turned to me - I can tell you that I felt it was God speaking through her lips - and said "You see, this is what God wants from us. Not only fasting, not only attending these wonderful services - shouldn't I were supposed to be there now, in my "Holy Resurrection" monastery, fasting, attending the services, preparing the Holy Pascha? But He cut up my will and I will eat liver tomorrow, the Good Friday!Glory to Thy, Lord". Couldn't she say "no, doctor,if you agree, I will eat meat after three days, now i can not, because I am a monastic and is Lent and...and...". She did not whisper a word, and she started eating meat...So she proved to be a good mother.

[Father David Moser]

First, how do I know/test that this is a true calling and not some kind of a phase that I am going through? Could you give some advice on what I could do?

Go live in a monastery as a monastic for a couple of years without making any kind of committment. In most monasteries this is the usual process anyway. You will first live there as a "worker", then after a time, if it seems appropriate, the abbot and/or your Spiritual Father will clothe you as a novice and then again after more time you might be given a Riassa and klobuk. After more years, if all goes well, at the direction of the abbot and your spiritual father, you will tonsured into the small schema (at this point you are a monk - before this you are just working up to it). Some monks in the monastery live their entire monastic lives as a riassaphore monk, never actually being tonsured until their deathbed. Most monks at the monastery who are actual monks are small schema monks and a very few have taken the great schema. This is all according to Slav tradition - the Greek/Byzantine tradition varies somewhat.


Second, I realize that the Bible is not big on "staying with your family", rather than taking up the cross and following Christ while forsaking everything (Mathew 19:27-29, Luke 14:33, Luke 12:33-34) and everyone (including family) except Him. ...
I do not feel that I should tell them about this desire. Legally, does it matter if they approve or not, seeing as how I am 18+? I know that parental approval is not necessary for taking monastic vows, but I somehow feel that their sure (would be) disapproval is preventing me in progressing,

It is always a good thing to enter monastic life with your parent's blessing, however, it is not necessary. This is a question for your spiritual father (who should be directing you throughout this process).


Third, my family is going through financial instability, ... they kind of depend on me getting a job (once I graduate) and help them out. I do pray to God constantly asking him to at least give us some kind of security,... Will God not accept me as I am if I leave my family in financial distress?


Again, this is a question for your spiritual father and for the abbot of the monastery where you wish to enter. I will say that when we read the lives of the saints,there are many examples of monastic saints who waited until their parents died or who waited until their siblings were taken care of before they entered monastic life. St Juliana of Lazarevo, at the request of her husband and children, set aside monastic life altogether and the blessed Pelagia of Sarov was instructed by St Seraphim to return to her (abusive) husband and not to enter monastic life until he had died. This question requires a lot of spiritual discernment and you should submit to the direction of the abbot and your spiritual father.


Fourth, I realize the fact that monasticism does not guarantee salvation, as St. Theofan the Recluse says, it's better to be a monk in the world than a layperson in a monastery. I do, however, feel that people who are taking a long time in making the decision (visiting many different monasteries to see which they are most comfortable with, and still cannot decide) are only hurting themselves.

see my answer to question 1


This leads me to my fifth, and final question, I believe that I have a choice between two countries, U.S.A. and Russia, regarding my monastery of choice (or, technically, their choice of me).

Do you speak Russian? If not, you probably want to be cautious of going to Russia for monastic life. As far as finding a monastery in which to work out your salvation, ask for direction from your spiritual father, from your bishop, from other senior clergy whose opinion you respect. There are plenty of monastic options both here in North America and in Russia. Go where you can most effectively work out your salvation.



Long story short - I feel that if I stay with my family (and this city) any longer, it will have a negative effect on my spirituality and that I will eventually lose the calling (if I keep putting the decision off), because I am going through an important phase in my life right now. I don't want to ponder for the rest of my life in the misery of the "What could of been?" scenario,

Is this just your feeling or have you been told this by your spiritual father? Trust your spiritual father to give you the best direction about where to. If you are truly called to monastic life, it doesn't matter how long you wait, that calling will still be with you. And believe me, no matter what you choose, you will always be visited by the temptation of "What could have been".

Fr David Moser

[M.C. Steenberg]

Just to add one small personal note to Fr David's and others' very fine comments and advice above:

If ever the call to monastic life, when scrutinised, is in fact discovered to be a running away -- from whatever: be it family, worries, relationships, pain -- then it is best to pray for calm, patience, and further discernment. The monastic life has to be, at its heart, not a running away from anyone or anything, but a running toward Jesus Christ.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Eric Peterson]

It seems to me that a real calling, for monasticism, marriage, priesthood, medical school, etc. has no risk of vanishing because you were unable to attend to it right away. It is something that grows in you and, when confronted with difficulty, only gets stronger because it is a divine purpose.

From what I could tell, it seems you are very young and have need of time and experience to sort things out. While you have, it seems, read a lot of books, I am not sure how much of the book of your own life you have read, and it would be of great help for you to discuss this with the priest to whom you currently confess. While it may appear, from reading lives of saints or writings of elders, that a calling for monasticism is something obvious, I would ask you to pay close attention to the cases where the calling was realized only through extensive testing before even setting foot in the monastery. If we do not undergo extensive testing now, before making a vow which will bind us eternally, how do we know how we'll hold up after we've already given that vow? For there are sure to be many more and greater trials after entering in to a monastery or marriage which will tempt us to leave that state to which we've given ourselves. I think it's best never to rush into anything, but to bear patiently what circumstances God gives us and trust in Him to guide us.

As for the situation with your family, well, we can point to lots of examples where monastics left their parents in various straights. But I think discernment is needed here. If you can help your family by working or doing whatever useful thing you can, this seems to me a good thing because you will be doing not your own will, but another's, and you will be sacrificing yourself for the good of others. Now, what is the monastic life if not obedience and sacrifice? If you combine that with patience and prayer, you will be on your way to an understanding of real monasticism, in my poor estimation anyways.

If you'd care to read helpful books, I would suggest two which have helped me learn a lot of good, practical spiritual information about monastic calling and spiritual life in general, written by respected modern elders who were highly experienced in spiritual life, dealing with various problems of people, and able to attend especially to our special modern conditions. "Spiritual Awakening," by Elder Paisios of Mount Athos and "May God Give You Wisdom," by Fr. John Krestiankin--pay attention here to what he has to say to those considering monasticism, many of them wrote to them thinking they had a calling, but he showed them they were approaching it for the wrong reasons.

But, foremost, discuss this with your confessor/spiritual father, and ask him to recommend a monastic to talk to as well.

God be with you!

[Alexander Zhdanov]

It once passed through the mind of Antonios the Great to wonder what measure of holiness he had attained. God, however, Who wished to humble his mind, showed him in a dream one night that a certain cobbler, who had a shop on one of the out-of-the-way streets of Alexandria, was better than he.

As soon as day broke, the Saint took his staff and set out for the city. He wanted to meet this renown cobbler himself and to see his virtues. With great difficulty, he found his shop, went inside, sat down beside him on his bench, and began to ask about his life.

The simple man, who could not figure out who this old monk who came so suddenly to interrogate him was, answered him ever so slowly and calmly, without taking his eyes from the shoe that he was mending.

"I do not know, Abba, if I have ever done any good. Every morning I get up and do my prayers and then I begin my work. However, I first say to myself that all the people in this city, from the very least to the very greatest, will be saved, and only I will be condemned for my many sins. And in the evening when I lie down, again I think about the same thing."

The Saint stood up in wonderment, embraced the cobbler, kissed him, and said to him with emotion: "You, my brother, like a good merchant, have easily gained the precious pearl. I have grown old in the desert, toiling and sweating, but I have not attained to your humility."

[J. K. Amra]

Just to add one small personal note to Fr David's and others' very fine comments and advice above:

If ever the call to monastic life, when scrutinised, is in fact discovered to be a running away -- from whatever: be it family, worries, relationships, pain -- then it is best to pray for calm, patience, and further discernment. The monastic life has to be, at its heart, not a running away from anyone or anything, but a running toward Jesus Christ.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Hi all, thank you so much for all the advice, I appreciate it greatly. The decision has been made in favor of monasticism, but has been put on hold for the moment. I realized that my departure would not be a privation of the extend that I thought it would be to my family, but feel that my spiritual maturity and awareness needs further progress. God Bless everyone of you who've cared enough to respond.

[Mary M.]

Just to add one small personal note to Fr David's and others' very fine comments and advice above:

If ever the call to monastic life, when scrutinised, is in fact discovered to be a running away -- from whatever: be it family, worries, relationships, pain -- then it is best to pray for calm, patience, and further discernment. The monastic life has to be, at its heart, not a running away from anyone or anything, but a running toward Jesus Christ.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

This is an extremely important point.I once considered monastic life and I have been and always will spend at least a week out of each year at a monastery, but I realized that I considered it more because I felt awkward in the world. After some thought I realized that if certain circumstances changed,that I'd leave the monastery in a heartbeat.

It took me a few years to see this, and it was quite subtle. However, I did not have a spiritual father, and hopefully you have the benefit of one that will help you discern a bit more quickly than I did.

[Theodora E.]

Something to remember: regardless of how much you want to become a monastic, they might say, "No, you don't belong in a monastery." I'm only making this comment due to the experience of a friend. He had once lived very much in the world, but changed his life, became much more involved in the Church, and wanted to become a monk. He spent some time, not a small amount, in at least one monastery, but he was told by all that he should not be a monk and was not allowed to enter the monastery.