Fasting

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

Following from October's theme of the month, 'Humility', which led to a very good thread of discussion (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6387), the result of the polling is that the theme for this month, November 2009, should be fasting.

This is a timely topic, given that the Nativity Fast begins later this month (on 15th / 28th November) and attention to the theme may prove not only interesting but also spiritually beneficial and eminently practical.

So: let us begin! Please post any and all contributions on the theme of fasting here in the thread. (Including quotations from the Fathers on fasting; though, as ever, we don't want the thread simply to be a listing of quotations - include discussion, thoughts, and questions also!)

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[M.C. Steenberg]

As some background reading on this month's theme, members and readers might be interested to know that there is a whole area of this Discussion Community dedicated to fasting: Ascesis and Praxis > Fasting (http://www.monachos.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=291). The area contains nearly 50 threads devoted to all aspects of fasting, including a section on fasting foods and recipes.

Perhaps we can dedicate this theme-of-the-month thread specifically to words from the Fathers on fasting, and our own reflections on the same.

Specific questions (e.g. the 'whys and hows') can be kept in the main fasting area.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Michael Stickles]

I guess I'll kick this off with the earliest Patristic reference I know of. Back in my Protestant days, when I started looking into the history of the early church, I remember coming across the Didache (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lake.html) - one of the earliest written Christian texts outside of the New Testament (the most common dating seemed to be between 50-120 AD).

I remember being surprised - in some cases, shocked - at just how different some of the practices detailed in the Didache were from what I had grown accustomed to considering as "New Testament Christianity". Among those were a couple of instructions on fasting:

(7:4) And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

(8:1) Let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on Mondays and Thursdays, but do you fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.

I found it fascinating that fasting - not just as a "whenever-you-want-to" thing, but as a prescribed practice, both regular and situational - could be traced all the way back to the Apostolic times (and, naturally, after reading this, I promptly filed it in my mind under "fascinating" and went back to my regular practice of not fasting at all, at least until we started investigating Orthodoxy). I should have been fascinated also by what these implied about ritual and liturgical practices in the early church (for one, that they even existed), but since I'd managed to miss that in the New Testament it's not surprising that it went over my head here as well.

In Christ,
Michael

[Mary]

I'm so happy this has come up! I wonder if anyone can help me find teachings that connect fasting and how they are effective in our war against our sins and passions. Scripture references will be equally useful, since I'm having some serious discussions with some folks who think their only source of truth is the Bible.

I have another question, but I'm not sure how to phrase it. I'll post it later, when I've thought about it some more.

in Christ,
Mary.

[Michael Stickles]

I wonder if anyone can help me find teachings that connect fasting and how they are effective in our war against our sins and passions. Scripture references will be equally useful, since I'm having some serious discussions with some folks who think their only source of truth is the Bible.

I don't know of any Scriptures about that (excepting "this kind comes not out except by prayer and fasting", but that verse is often explained away using various justifications). But here are a couple of teachings from the old thread "Why do we fast? Reasons for the act (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1328)":

Abba John the Short said, "If a king wants to take a city whose citizens are hostile, he first captures the food and water of the inhabitants of the city, and when they are starving subdues them. So it is with gluttony. If a man is earnest in fasting and hunger, the enemies which trouble his soul will grow weak."

Dialogue of Sts. Barsanuphis & John (6th Cent., Palestine): "Concerning fasting, do not grieve, as I have said to you before: God does not demand of anyone labors beyond his strength. And indeed, what is fasting if not a punishment of the body in order to humble a healthy body and make it infirm for passions, according to the word of the Apostle: "When I am weak, then am I strong"".

Here's one from the online article An History of Fasting (http://www.acrod.org/readingroom/lent/historyoffasting) on the ACROD website:

"When the soul lusts for various foods, let us confine it to bread and water, to make it grateful for even a thin slice of bread." - The Philokalia; Abba Evagrios, On Active Life.

If those folks won't accept quotations from the Fathers (I've known many who won't, claiming that in those times the "pure faith of the Apostles had become corrupted ..." and so on), you might ask if they respect the teachings of Protestant writers such as Andrew Murray. There are several things in Chapter 13 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/murray/prayer.XIII.html) of his With Christ in the School of Prayer that sound like they could be paraphrases of the Fathers, such as this one:


And prayer needs fasting for its full growth: this is the second lesson. Prayer is the one hand with which we grasp the invisible; fasting, the other, with which we let loose and cast away the visible. In nothing is man more closely connected with the world of sense than in his need of food, and his enjoyment of it. It was the fruit, good for food, with which man was tempted and fell in Paradise. It was with bread to be made of stones that Jesus, when an hungered, was tempted in the wilderness, and in fasting that He triumphed. The body has been redeemed to be a temple of the Holy Spirit; it is in body as well as spirit, it is very specially, Scripture says, in eating and drinking, we are to glorify God. It is to be feared that there are many Christians to whom this eating to the glory of God has not yet become a spiritual reality. And the first thought suggested by Jesus’ words in regard to fasting and prayer, is, that it is only in a life of moderation and temperance and self-denial that there will be the heart or the strength to pray much.

In Christ,
Michael

[Herman Blaydoe]

I'm so happy this has come up! I wonder if anyone can help me find teachings that connect fasting and how they are effective in our war against our sins and passions. Scripture references will be equally useful, since I'm having some serious discussions with some folks who think their only source of truth is the Bible.

I have another question, but I'm not sure how to phrase it. I'll post it later, when I've thought about it some more.

in Christ,
Mary.

Our Lord tells us how to fast in Matthew 6:16-17. He does not say "if you fast", or "do not fast", but "... when you fast ..." Evidently our Lord assumes fasting is part of our walk with Him. And Matthew, Mark, and Luke give testimony that our Lord said that His disciples WILL fast when the Bridegroom is taken away. Our Lord Himself fasted for forty days, which is why we do so during Great and Holy Lent. If our Lord did it, surely it is beneficial for us? What then shall we say about those who profess to follow Christ and know nothing of fasting? I would say somebody was not paying attention.

But that might just be me.

Herman the Pooh

[Ilaria]

Fr Cleopa said: " first of all you should know that the first commandment is the command for fasting. Listen to St Basil the Great "fasting is since the creation of world". The command for fasting was given from Heaven, because God told Adam "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden". That's why, when God gave the Ten Commandments, He did not give the commandment for fasting, according to the Holy Fathers, as this commandment had already been given 4108 years before the Law. "

[Vasiliki D.]

I would love to see some discussion, with quotations, on what I all "FFCF" (Fool-for-Christ Fasting).

It is not uncommon for ascetics and monks to break their fasting rules under particular circumstances ... I have always been confused by this and would love to see my own thoughts expanded by the information or comments others might have to share on this.

[Michael Stickles]

It is not uncommon for ascetics and monks to break their fasting rules under particular circumstances ... I have always been confused by this and would love to see my own thoughts expanded by the information or comments others might have to share on this.

I know that one of the most common reasons I've seen for saints and/or ascetics to set aside the fasting rules is the requirements of hospitality, as in this story from the life of St. Spyridon (http://www.stspyridon.org.au/ourFaith.php?articleId=83&subMenu=Saints):



St. Simeon Metaphrastes (November 9), the author of his Life, likened St. Spyridon to the Patriarch Abraham in his hospitality. Sozomen, in his CHURCH HISTORY, offers an amazing example from the life of the saint of how he received strangers. One time, at the start of the Forty-day Fast, a stranger knocked at his door. Seeing that the traveller was very exhausted, St. Spyridon said to his daughter, "Wash the feet of this man, so he may recline to dine." But since it was Lent there were none of the necessary provisions, for the saint "partook of food only on certain days, and on other days he went without food." His daughter replied that there was no bread or flour in the house. Then St. Spyridon, apologizing to his guest, ordered his daughter to cook a salted ham from their larder. After seating the stranger at table, he began to eat, urging that man to do the same. When the latter refused, calling himself a Christian, the saint rejoined, "It is not proper to refuse this, for the Word of God proclaims, "Unto the pure all things are pure" (Tit. 1:15).


Or this note about the monastery founded by St. Columba of Iona (from an online life (http://www.roca.org/OA/74/74f.htm) of the saint):


The monks fasted strictly, preserving the ancient tradition of abstinence until 3 o'clock on fast days. The fasting was relaxed at the abbot's discretion if a pilgrim arrived, for hospitality was seen as a missionary tool and, in spite of the austere life of the monks, visitors were encouraged and always received a warm welcome.

In Christ,
Michael

[Kosmas Damianides]

"The days will come when the bridegroom (Christ) is taken away from them, and then they will fast." (Matthew 9:15)

I thought I would post this to remind us all of the mystery of fasting and the reason of why we fast as Orthodox Christians.

I believe no words can fully explain why we ought to fast. Although, we have been given many reasons for fasting by the Holy Fathers. I remember reading about fasting but forget the author9s)... I remember them saying that fasting is;


1) a 'tool' used to get closer to God
2) a 'tool' to fight the passions
3) a 'tool' used to build self control
4) it does not make us righteous nor more holy but is a means of doing this.
5) it is a means to perfecting the Love inside us. If we have Love we have fulfilled all of the law. (Galatians 5:14)

I should also point out that I also remember reading that the fathers also want us to give to those in need as we fast. In the old days fasting was about saving money and food and giving it to the orphans widows and poor and sick. It meant having to eat less in order to help others with food blankets etc.. It was Love in action. These days we have a more rigid/ ritualistic idea of what fasting is all about.
Basically we fast to save our souls.

Humbly Yours In Christ
Deacon Kosmas

[Owen]

Here, in my own words, is one of my favorite stories from the Desert Fathers.

When Abba Hilarion (the Great) was well advanced, he determined to visit various places around the known world. Anon, he came to Cyprus, where Abba Epiphanios (the Jew) was Bishop. This Epiphanios had desired to become a monk in Egypt; he once gave a lecture at Scetis which was so erudite that the monks advised him to go to the City and become a Bishop.

Having arrived at the bishop's residence, Abba Hilarion and the bishop spent a long afternoon in edifying conversation, and when evening drew on, Epiphanios dispatched his deacon to prepare dinner. The deacon returned with a freshly plucked chicken. Abba Hilarion was aghast and exclaimed, "Forgive me, Father, never since I took the habit in Egypt have my lips tasted meat." Abba Ephanios replied, "Indeed, that was also true of me, but now that I'm a bishop, I'm obliged to accept and live on whatever my people give me." And then, after a little thought, he added, "When I took the habit in Egypt, I made a vow never to go to bed angry with anyone." Abba Hilarion replied, "Forgive me, Father; your way is better than mine."

[Ilaria]

Thank you, Owen, this is a wonderful story!
this is not only about fasting, this is about humility as well!
again, we see that virtues are linked one another

[Alice]

Forgive me for interjecting this, but I feel this is something which is never addressed in by our spiritual fathers or any other religious material on fasting. Many people today suffer from various ailments, and even for those who don't, that make them very susceptible to vitamin deficiencies. Even when people embark on medical diets, they are told by the diet centers and/or doctors to supplement themselves with vitamins, and at the very least a very good quality multivitamin to fill in the gaps...and that is said for diets which include all the food groups!

I think that this is something which should be mentioned to anyone embarking on the fast. The absence of dairy and meat and fish can have serious consequences if not supplemented. The B vitamins are most especially important for the body and nervous system and they are not found in vegan foods. The deficiency of B12 can most especially hurt a person. This is especially important in the West where people do not consume healthy foods during the fast, or even if they do, it is not in the spirit of the fast to eat large quantities of food. Many people are clueless about nutrition. Even the best and healthiest fast of whole foods (such as the Greek fasting foods) still do not have *all* the vitamins the body needs from a balanced diet. Our foods today also generally do not provide the amount of nutrients they did in the past. Also our lifestyles can often be quite busy, which also depletes the body of vital vitamins.

I speak from personal experiences of my family and myself. A good vitamin regimen can be the key to being able to maintain the Fast without having to break it for health reasons, and besides one's physical health, it can also be the key to not developing edginess and/or a bad temper (something I have actually seen a few men, including a priest, develop from during the Fast from the lack of B vitamins, vital to the nervous system, found in meat--one of which I suggested to start taking vitamins, and it immediately helped him; his sudden temper and edginess disappeared and he felt much better)

Alice

[Herman Blaydoe]

Forgive me for interjecting this, but I feel this is something which is never addressed in by our spiritual fathers or any other religious material on fasting.

Well, actually it is often addressed, but generally on an individual basis. This is one of the reasons why we are often told that it is important to check with both your physical and spiritual physicians as to what is appropriate fasting for our individual situations. I know of situations where pregnant an d nursing women are given dispensations from fasting. Another woman, who was sick, was told that her illness was her podvig, and that fasting (in her particular situation) was not required.

I know a story told by a visiting monk from Russia about another woman who was sick during Great and Holy Lent. He had advised her to take some milk as recommended by her doctor. She told the monk she would rather die than break the fast. I don't recall if he related how that particular story resolved itself, if she survived the Lent or not. But I think the idea is that both cases were "appropriate" for that individual, even though one might not fast to preserve her health (and the health of her child), while the other accepted a more strenuous podvig. They were both "not wrong." We can go back and forth over this I suppose, but we are not them and what might be appropriate in our own situations is another matter entirely.

To make a short story long, there is no universal "right" answer. It depends: on your spiritual development, the discernment of your spiritual advisor, and God's grace which we do not control. And sometimes doing the "right" thing for the wrong reasons can be spiritually detrimental, that I think, has been discussed in many posts.

Fasting is a form of spiritual exercise, and before taking any intense exercise regime, it is best to consult with a knowledgeable and trusted "coach" and physician first as to where you are physically and in this case spiritually as to what is appropriate. We are not to judge another person's efforts, that is between them and God. We are only to strive to do the best we can in the situation we are in, in obedience and in love.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Nina]

Well, actually it is often addressed, but generally on an individual basis. This is one of the reasons why we are often told that it is important to check with both your physical and spiritual physicians as to what is appropriate fasting for our individual situations.

Herman the Pooh

Yes. My physician, after we lost Nicholas, told me that she wants me to try to replace the depelted storage of vitamins in my body before trying to conceive again, so I will have to ask the blessing of my SF on what to do during this fast. It takes the body 2 years to replace them :( . Also, during Lent, before conceiving Nicholas, my SF was telling me that I need to eat protein and eat well since we were trying to conceive. So of course we must check with SF and Dr. before embarking on a fast. Do not try "heroicism" like I did last year and got myself sick, since I wanted to emulate the monastics who eat only once a day, and I did it without the blessing of my SF. And got myself so ill that I interrupted the Lent and could not fast for several fasts.

[Alice]

Dear Herman and Nina,

My point was that even a healthy individual, after consulting with his SF and getting permission to fast, should take a multivitamin.

Alice

[Herman Blaydoe]

Dear Herman and Nina,

My point was that even a healthy individual, after consulting with his SF and getting permission to fast, should take a multivitamin.

Alice

And my point is that not every physician, medical or spiritual, would agree with that. While I agree that modern processed foods may be less nutritious overall in many ways, fasting has been around a lot longer than multivitamins have been, and people can overdo everything, including "health".

But I fear we are in danger of veering off-course of the thread here. The usual caveats apply (see my profile).

Herman the "all natural" Pooh

[Mary]

Dear Herman and Nina,

My point was that even a healthy individual, after consulting with his SF and getting permission to fast, should take a multivitamin.

Alice

Dear Alice,

I'm afraid this is a matter of opinion, and so it could flare up. Please forgive me. I do agree with you that many people don't get enough nutrition from their regular diets and need supplements. However, in case of fasting, I see things a bit differently. We're not doing it in the same spirit as going on a diet to lose weight or build muscles or whatever else. We're doing it for spiritual reasons. If the church had said nothing about fasting, I'd never fast. I love my food, and can't give it up, even though I'd love to lose weight.

Anyway - since the entire premise of our fasting is different, I believe there are a lot more reasons for crankiness during fasting, than insufficient supplements. The devil increases his attacks. We start becoming more and more aware of our own sinfulness and can't stand living with ourselves. It all comes to a head towards the end of the long fasts - especially Great Lent - and then, we get all cleaned up and everything is ok.

I've noticed this pattern in myself, even during non-fast seasons, if I start getting close to 3 or 4 weeks since my last confession. I start getting cranky, I run out of patience for my kids and everyone else, and I can't focus on my work. During the fasting seasons, I can't go 3 or 4 weeks without confession. The entire process seems to be accelerated, and all I can think about is what a miserable wretch I am. I particularly hate being responsible for others at this time. And a priest, is responsible for a lot more people than I am. I suppose a happy priest during fasting seasons, would be a miracle. Or a happy me, too. =)

Also, I believe, because we fast in obedience to God, He is responsible to supply whatever we need. After we've wisely consulted our spiritual fathers, and if we're not healthy, our doctors - then, just throw yourself on God and give it all you've got. Is it too hard for Him to sustain us, on just bread and water? Wasn't there a monk who got stranded on an island and had nothing to drink but salt water, and he drank it, and he lived, for many, many, years?

Another thing - fasting is supposed to decrease our attention to food and other physical needs while we focus on prayer and getting rid of sins. It is also supposed to decrease our food bills, so we can share more with those in need. But if we spend more time analyzing what we eat, balancing off the missing parts with good substitutes, and spending insane amounts of money on supplements (which in some cases are far more expensive than all the foods we're avoiding) - then hasn't the purpose of the fast already been dashed to bits?

When I fast, I still eat well. There are people in the world, who because of famine or sickness, cannot eat like I do. In fact, after becoming aware of people with such severe allergies that just touching a certain food causes them to go into shock - I'm ashamed to enjoy so many foods. The people in Ethiopia are starving again. Supplements are the last thing on their minds. Bread and clean water would be like a feast to them. Fasting gives me a microscopic taste of life without food, a reality that some people cannot escape, which for me, is a choice.

On another note - I've been reading a lot about various grains and the nutrition available in them, since my daughter was told to avoid eggs, dairy, gluten, and all the foods that we normally eat - for a while. I'm learning a lot. We normally focus on a few grains - wheat, rice, corn, barley, oatmeal, more wheat, even more corn. But there are so very many grains, and there's one - I have to go back and find the name - it has more protein that legumes - as much as meat and eggs! So you see, part of our pathetic diets, is also because of the pathetic variety. All non-gluten products in the market are made of rice. What's the point of eating rice in different shapes? It's still rice. Same with corn and wheat. Just because they're presented differently doesn't mean they're different.

But this is information for the nutrition corner. =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[Alice]

I should have known better that I would not be respected for this opinion, and I had a gut feeling I would get a bit of flack. :-(

I thought that if I help just one person, or if just one priest thinks about it and recommends it, it might be helpful so that fasting can be more successful, as it is so very necessary for our spiritual health.

I only wanted to be helpful because I know alot about nutrition, and alot of persons (including physicians of the body) do not...so I was really just trying to help. Women have special needs for iron and calcium, for instance, that might not be met in fasting foods, so they need a multi-vitamin. I remember how one group of Greek-American Orthodox people I know who were cooking for a youth group, thought a fasting meal was spaghetti with sauce and a plain salad...without one source of protein (such as legumes) in it.

In Greece, where the fast originated, healthy fasting is a no brainer. People always ate lots of legumes, seafood, dandelion greens, whole grains, etc...it comes as second nature and they love this kind of food. I have not found that to generally be the case in the States.

Anyway, I won't say anymore. Sorry to sidetrack this thread. I fast very much, and very healthfully, but because 1200 calories a day (which is what I need to eat to maintain my weight and my health) wont cover most nutritional needs, even off the fast, I have found out the hard way, that vitamins are very necessary.

God bless!
Alice

[Mary]

I should have known better that I would not be respected for this opinion, and I had a gut feeling I would get a bit of flack. :-(God bless!
Alice

Alice, I'm glad you were brave enough to post your thoughts, even though you felt like you'd get a bit of flack! It has actually helped me put into words the question that has been flip-flopping in my mind, refusing to find the right words.

How can I know if I'm testing God, or trusting God, when it comes to fasting? Sometimes they seem to be the same actions on the outside. For instance - the side of fasting that Alice brought up - when does it become irresponsible and testing God to not take care of your own needs? Am I really trusting God, when I refuse to think about what I eat?

That goes even further. While trying to find a balance between fasting as strictly as I can, and not obsessing about food, and also being willing to eat what has been served to me without making a big show of my fasting - I have come to the place where I feel like I don't really work at fasting like I used to. And I wonder if I've allowed myself too much leniency and am never truly fasting at all. Am I deluding myself into thinking that I am fasting?

Since the kids don't fast as strictly as I do, there's always some dairy stuff in the house. And there's always left overs that's too little to freeze and too much to toss. And then there's the fact that my husband frequently forgets that we fast on wednesdays and fridays, and brings home stuff that are non-fasting. And, without any guilt, I help myself to everything. Am I testing God? I'm not really fasting if I'm only thinking of fasting and not really doing it, right?

This of course, is most problematic for the non-fasting periods. During the long fasts, we run out of non-fasting left-overs within a week or two. Then, there's only the milk and cheese-sticks to tempt me. I don't keep track of how many days I resist temptation. I don't keep track of how many times I give in either; because, according to my faulty logic, I don't judge another person's plate, and neither do I judge my own.

in Christ,
mary

[Herman Blaydoe]

I should have known better that I would not be respected for this opinion, and I had a gut feeling I would get a bit of flack. :-(

Whoa! Simply because some people don't agree with you is not disrespect, merely disagreement. Are you equating the two? I respectfully request you reconsider.


I thought that if I help just one person, or if just one priest thinks about it and recommends it, it might be helpful so that fasting can be more successful, as it is so very necessary for our spiritual health.

You know, martyrdom is not considered particularly "healthy" either. The Church does not generically recommend it for everyone, but it does seem to make a big deal over those who become martyrs. Physical health is a good thing, but there are those who think it over-rated and not necessarily essential for spiritual health.


I only wanted to be helpful because I know alot about nutrition, and alot of persons (including physicians of the body) do not...so I was really just trying to help. Women have special needs for iron and calcium, for instance, that might not be met in fasting foods, so they need a multi-vitamin. I remember how one group of Greek-American Orthodox people I know who were cooking for a youth group, thought a fasting meal was spaghetti with sauce and a plain salad...without one source of protein (such as legumes) in it.

I do believe that I (for one) did say something about dispensations and checking with doctors and such, and that all extensive exercise regimes should be entered into with some caution and preparation, as have others.


In Greece, where the fast originated, healthy fasting is a no brainer. People always ate lots of legumes, seafood, dandelion greens, whole grains, etc...it comes as second nature and they love this kind of food. I have not found that to generally be the case in the States.

As long as we can differentiate between spiritual health and physical health and agree that the two are NOT synonymous (nor do they have to be mutually exclusive). One can be spiritually healthy while not physically healthy and one can be physically healthy without being spiritually healthy, and one certainly should not go out of their way to harm their physical health without a very good reason and a blessing.


Anyway, I won't say anymore. Sorry to sidetrack this thread. I fast very much, and very healthfully, but because 1200 calories a day (which is what I need to eat to maintain my weight and my health) wont cover most nutritional needs, even off the fast, I have found out the hard way, that vitamins are very necessary.

Vitamins are important to physical health. Agreed. There is no absolute requirement to sacrifice physical health for spiritual health. Agreed. Be careful not to harm yourself when fasting, spiritually or physically. Agreed.

[Nina]

Dear Herman and Nina,

My point was that even a healthy individual, after consulting with his SF and getting permission to fast, should take a multivitamin.

Alice

Yes! I agreed with you. I was super-healthy last year for Lent and thought to push the envelope when fasting without receiving the blessing first. And I was not taking multivitamin. And once a day consisted sometime of only tomato + cucumber + bread. So I agreed with you that one can get seriously ill if they do not take multiv. and do not take blessing for any heroic thing they try to embark on. I understood that my fasting was not due to my repentance, but due to my egotism.

[M.C. Steenberg]

I've read the recent exchange of posts on health and nutrition, vis-a-vis fasting, with interest. The practical matter of whether or not one should take a multivitamin, etc., or not, being set aside (that gets rather into questions of how healthy they really are, etc., which may not really be our interest - at least in this thread!), it does raise the more fundamental question of fasting and the sacrifice of health.

Herman, above, made the interesting quip: 'martyrdom is not considered particularly healthy either'. I raise the following not as a commentary or an answer-in-advance, but to provoke discussion: how are we to pair the quite prevalent approach today, that fasting is important but mustn't become 'unhealthy', with the many (many!) examples in patristic literature if fasting being a sacrifice of health, of physical well-being, etc?

Thoughts from the Fathers particularly welcome (perhaps someone has a moment to find and post for us a few examples?); but also of experience, etc.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Rick H.]

As well, I wonder about any quotes and thoughts about how teaching of the Royal Road speaks to this issue.

[Michael Stickles]

... how are we to pair the quite prevalent approach today, that fasting is important but mustn't become 'unhealthy', with the many (many!) examples in patristic literature if fasting being a sacrifice of health, of physical well-being, etc?

Thoughts from the Fathers particularly welcome (perhaps someone has a moment to find and post for us a few examples?); but also of experience, etc.

First, a personal experience. When we joined the church and were getting guidance from our priest on fasting, he made a distinction between what we did as adults, and what we had the children do. For the children, we were to make sure their nutritional needs were satisfied even if it meant seriously relaxing the fast. For us, there was a "minimum" level we were expected to keep, but we could push as far beyond that as we wanted as long as we could do so without pride - nutrition wasn't even mentioned.

As for the Fathers, here are a few quotes that I found. First, Augustine had the following to say in one of his letters (#130, To Proba (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf101.vii.1.CXXX.html?highlight=fasting#highligh t)), where he seems to lean towards care for health:


Fasting, and abstinence from gratifying carnal desire in other pleasures without injury to health, and especially frequent almsgiving, are a great assistance in prayer; so that we may be able to say, “In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord, with my hands in the night before Him, and I was not deceived.”

Whereas Jerome, in his Life of St. Hilarion (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.vi.ii.html?highlight=for%20food#highlight) , praises the Saint's fasting with minimal regard to his own health:


From his thirty-first to his thirty-fifth year, he had for food six ounces of barley bread, and vegetables slightly cooked without oil. But finding his eyes growing dim and his whole body shrivelled with a scabby eruption and dry mange, he added oil to his former food and up to the sixty-third year of his life followed this temperate course, tasting neither fruit nor pulse, nor anything whatsoever besides. Then when he saw that his bodily health was broken down, and thought death was near, from his sixty-fourth year to his eightieth he abstained from bread. The fervour of his spirit was so wonderful, that at times when others are wont to allow themselves some laxity of living he appeared to be entering like a novice on the service of the Lord.

I think that St. John Chrysostom, in his first homily on the statues (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf109.xix.iii.html?highlight=fast#highlight), strikes a somewhat balanced note. Apologies for the greater length of this one, but I can't think of a good way to summarize it further, and there's much of value there (I'd encourage everyone to read it in full, for themselves):



... permit me to say something of the virtue of Timothy, and of the loving care of Paul. For what was ever more tender hearted than this man, who being so far distant, and encircled with so many cares, exercised so much consideration for the health of his disciple’s stomach, and wrote with exact attention about the correction of his disorder? And what could equal the virtue of Timothy? He so despised luxury, and derided the sumptuous table, as to fall into sickness from excessive austerity, and intense fasting. For that he was not naturally so infirm a person, but had overthrown the strength of his stomach by fasting and water drinking; you may hear Paul himself carefully making this plain.

... Timothy ... knew that youth is an age of difficulty; that it is unstable; easily deceived; very apt to slip; and requires an exceedingly strong bridle. ... “Let the body,” saith he, “be infirm; but let not the soul be infirm; let the flesh be bridled; but let not the race of the spirit towards heaven be checked.”

... Paul did not at first, nor at the outset give this counsel. But when he saw that all strength was overthrown, then he gave it; and even then not simply, but with a certain prior limitation. He does not say merely, “Use wine,” but “a little” wine; not because Timothy needed this admonition and advice, but because we need it ... bidding him drink just so much as would correct disorder; as would bring health to the body, but not another disease. ...

For what reason then did God permit that such a saint, and one entrusted with the management of so many matters, should fall into a state of disease; and that neither Timothy himself nor his teacher had strength to correct the disorder, but needed that assistance which was to be had by drinking wine? ... For of the diversified and manifold affliction which befalls the saints, I have reasons eight in number to declare unto your love. ...

The first reason then is, that God permits them to suffer evil, that they may not too easily be exalted into presumption, by the greatness of their good works and miracles.

The second, that others may not have a greater opinion of them than belongs to human nature, and take them to be gods and not men.

The third, that the power of God may be made manifest, in prevailing, and overcoming, and advancing the word preached, through the efficacy of men who are infirm and in bonds.

The fourth, that the endurance of these themselves may become more striking, serving God, as they do, not for a reward; but showing even such right-mindedness as to give proof of their undiminished good will towards Him after so many evils.

The fifth, that our minds may be wise concerning the doctrine of a resurrection. For when thou seest a just man, and one abounding in virtue, suffering ten thousand evils, and thus departing the present life, thou art altogether compelled, though unwillingly, to think somewhat of the future judgment; for if men do not suffer those who have laboured for themselves, to depart without wages and recompense; much more cannot God design, that those who have so greatly laboured should be sent away uncrowned. But if He cannot intend to deprive those of the recompense of their labours eventually, there must needs be a time, after the end of the life here, in which they will receive the recompense of their present labours.

The sixth, that all who fall into adversity may have a sufficient consolation and alleviation, by looking at such persons, and remembering what sufferings have befallen them.

The seventh, that when we exhort you to the virtue of such persons, and we say to every one of you, “Imitate Paul, emulate Peter,” ye may not, on account of the surpassing character of their good works, slothfully shrink from such an imitation of them, as deeming them to have been partakers of a different nature.

The eighth, that when it is necessary to call any blessed, or the reverse, we may learn whom we ought to account happy, and whom unhappy and wretched.


In Christ,
Michael

[Mary M.]

Fr. Dcn, In reading the about the saints (by now a few of you have figured out that I read them quite a bit;) they seemed to vary in practice,and were so individual in their spiritual practices, that it seems that how harshly someone fasts or not depends on that person's spiritual and/or physical constitution.

According to the Synaxarion prepared by Hieromonk Makarios of Simons Petra (volume 2 November and Dec.),Venerable Father Marcian of Cyrrhus, Nov.2, ate about 12 oz of dried bread daily and

"preferred to keep to the same rule every day rather than fast for several days, as some people do, and then fill the stomach, making the body incapable of vigil and prayer."

Admittedly, this refers to non fasting seasons. Hermitress Photini of Palestine (?) led a very orderly life and ate more sparingly than lay people, but did not go to extremes in any way. Yet, I believe Simeon the Stylite hardly ate at all and his physical body was no less for the wear. In fact, he lived to a ripe old age.

I have serious calcium deficiencies and so eat yogurt every day,fast or no fast. I also take vitamins daily,but due to health problems I mainly abstain, and limit actual fasting to Sundays or presanctified liturgies.

During the last week of fasts I've found it especially beneficial to simplify my meals (less time in the kitchen) and try to adhere to the fast as strictly as possible. My prayer life intensifies and I truly benefit from the services.

Alice, I'm with you, that nutrition is important for most of us. Those that are physically stronger or will benefit spiritually without ruining their health may be able to pay less heed to it. The body is a gift too and few of us can afford to abuse it.




I've read the recent exchange of posts on health and nutrition, vis-a-vis fasting, with interest. The practical matter of whether or not one should take a multivitamin, etc., or not, being set aside (that gets rather into questions of how healthy they really are, etc., which may not really be our interest - at least in this thread!), it does raise the more fundamental question of fasting and the sacrifice of health.

Herman, above, made the interesting quip: 'martyrdom is not considered particularly healthy either'. I raise the following not as a commentary or an answer-in-advance, but to provoke discussion: how are we to pair the quite prevalent approach today, that fasting is important but mustn't become 'unhealthy', with the many (many!) examples in patristic literature if fasting being a sacrifice of health, of physical well-being, etc?

Thoughts from the Fathers particularly welcome (perhaps someone has a moment to find and post for us a few examples?); but also of experience, etc.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Alexander Zhdanov]

Give the body as much food as it needs, and thou shalt receive no harm, even if thou shouldest eat three times a day. If a man eats but once a day, but undiscerningly, what benefit is there to him from that. The warfare of fornication follows excess in eating - and after this the enemy weighs down the body with sleep in order to defile it.

Saints Barsanuphius and John

Do not say to me that I fasted for so many days, that I did not eat this or that, that I did not drink wine, that I endured want; but show me if thou from an angry man hast become gentle, if thou from a cruel man hast become benevolent. If thou art filled with anger, why oppress thy flesh? If hatred and avarice are within thee, of what benefit is it that thou drinkest water? Do not show forth a useless fast: for fasting alone does not ascend to heaven.

Saint John Chrysostom

I think that St. Fathers understood fasting as curing of sinful bents, predispositions of a person, instead of killing a body that under the Divine law is a crime. So in one of the letters, St. Ignaty criticizing an unreasonable relation to fasting as to end in itself ,writes that if you need to eat fish-eat, if it is necessary to drink milk-drink and also eat meat,if it is necessary. Further he writes that had necessity during a Lent to eat a fish soup which was prepared for him by brotherhood. In this letter he cited the story with St. Spiridon of Trimifunt as a proof of his relation to fasting.

Bye for now,

Alexander

[Nina]

According to the Synaxarion prepared by Hieromonk Makarios of Simons Petra (volume 2 November and Dec.),Venerable Father Marcian of Cyrrhus, Nov.2, ate about 12 oz of dried bread daily and

"preferred to keep to the same rule every day rather than fast for several days, as some people do, and then fill the stomach, making the body incapable of vigil and prayer."

Dear Mary, we who are not monastics, are supposed to follow less strict rules. And Fr. Dcn. Matthew has always made sure in the past that we remember the difference in each aspect when we post quotes for monastics by monastics. Not that the lay people can't challenge themselves for higher spiritual achievements, but in general we are laity and we can't do the 12 oz bread only - and dried bread will ruin our teeth and then we have to go pay so much money to the dentist to fix them (unless someone does not care about physical appearance, which many saints and fools for Christ do not) instead of doing something better with the same money. I have read from Fathers that we daily even when we are not fasting is to eat moderately as not to make our bodies feel heavy and lazy (and interfere with prayer/prostration) but how much and what is up to the spiritual father's discernment.

Admittedly, this refers to non fasting seasons. Hermitress Photini of Palestine (?) led a very orderly life and ate more sparingly than lay people, but did not go to extremes in any way. Yet, I believe Simeon the Stylite hardly ate at all and his physical body was no less for the wear. In fact, he lived to a ripe old age.Yes they are amazing aren't they! See we have all kinds of examples we can follow. And we can always try to sacrifice things during fast that give us pleasure. So I see why many monastics did not eat other than bread during Lent since one can be addicted to berries, or grape for instance and although these are Lenten food, those can still be addictive. Plus remember these Saints and Elders have powerful prayer. My prayer is so weak and could not sustain me when I tried to eat like a strict monastic.



I have serious calcium deficiencies and so eat yogurt every day,fast or no fast. I also take vitamins daily,but due to health problems I mainly abstain, and limit actual fasting to Sundays or presanctified liturgies.You must if your Dr and your SF says so. And remember you have a family that is responsible for you. If you get sick from reckless behavior even in fasting you will be a burden for them - I speak from experience. :( And the money spent in the hospital without a real reason can be spent in more profitable ways spiritually.


During the last week of fasts I've found it especially beneficial to simplify my meals (less time in the kitchen) and try to adhere to the fast as strictly as possible. My prayer life intensifies and I truly benefit from the services.This is all very good. Additionally, I think Elder Paisios said the lady who prays (Jesus Prayer esp.) when cooking sanctifies the meal and those who partake of it. Even if you spend a lot of time in the kitchen it is ascesis since you are laboring to serve your family, and you can always say prayers you know by heart and the Jesus Prayer.

[Herman Blaydoe]

If someone were to come up to me and say: "I am going to keep a strict fast, nothing at all for the first three days of Lent, and then nothing until after sundown, and then only some bread and boiled vegetables" I would first say "I hope you are not planning on driving or operating any heavy machinery". I would then also say "I hope you have a blessing from your confessor and your doctor."

I still cannot help but feel the "why" is more important than the "what". Strenuous fasting done for the wrong reasons causes harm, a "weak" effort done for the right reasons can be of great effect. Just like the widow's two mites, a little effort from those who are weak is going to be more efficacious than great feats from those who are strong.

One key, I suspect, might be not to become complacent, but to do always strive to do a little better, to keep challenging ourselves, under the guidance of our confessor, of course. Like any other form of exercise, there is danger in overdoing and not much good in under-doing. We are not doing it to "make God happy" but to make ourselves stronger athletes/soldiers for Christ.

[Nina]

St. Nectarios On Fasting (http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/03/saint-nectarios-on-fasting.html)

Why Fast? (http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/02/why-fast.html)

St. Athanasios the Great on Fasting. (http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/03/saint-athanasius-great-on-fasting.html)
(http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/03/saint-nectarios-on-fasting.html)

[R. Greene]

If someone were to come up to me and say: "I am going to keep a strict fast, nothing at all for the first three days of Lent, and then nothing until after sundown, and then only some bread and boiled vegetables" I would first say "I hope you are not planning on driving or operating any heavy machinery". I would then also say "I hope you have a blessing from your confessor and your doctor."

I still cannot help but feel the "why" is more important than the "what". Strenuous fasting done for the wrong reasons causes harm, a "weak" effort done for the right reasons can be of great effect. Just like the widow's two mites, a little effort from those who are weak is going to be more efficacious than great feats from those who are strong.

One key, I suspect, might be not to become complacent, but to do always strive to do a little better, to keep challenging ourselves, under the guidance of our confessor, of course. Like any other form of exercise, there is danger in overdoing and not much good in under-doing. We are not doing it to "make God happy" but to make ourselves stronger athletes/soldiers for Christ.

This is something that concerns me greatly. I mean, take Paul for instance. When was the last time he had to drive 65 miles per hour in a two ton vehicle through winding roads frequented by deer when he hadn't eaten anything all day but sugar (simple carbohydrates) and water? My dh has quite a commute to work, though not as bad as some others I have heard. He also has apnea, controlled, but he is still always exhausted. Not to mention he is hypoglycemic. So he started, like a bull out of the chutes, fasting upon our conversion. He would get a veggie sub at subway in the small town where he works and think he had done great things! (sadly their bread does have eggs in it, but it wasn't my job to worry over it) Or he would get noodles. Rarely would he get any protein, and all the carbs were very simple raped carbohydrates that the body read as sugar. By 3pm he was in a stupor and still to this day makes it home like a zombie. Fasting periods make him seriously messed up. Were any of the church father's facing today's rigors, driving even simple cars, being away from home all day or week> If not, how do we adapt the situation within the confines of fasting laws? For us, with a special needs child and no money for groceries most times, fasting at home is we only get two meals a day. That is year round. I can do no more as the lack of protein actually shuts my system down-and I can't gain it from the standby's of soy/shrimp/nuts I figure we are doing the best we can, and going without a great deal. Not that it will make my kids any holier, and there is still no money saved to go to the poor. We ARE the poor right now. lol! I just have to trust that doing the best I can to eek out survival is on God's books and not lament that I cannot do what some other person may do. I refuse to get out of sorts over the fasting issue, because when everyone else is feasting, we are still rationing or going hungry.

[Herman Blaydoe]

We do what we can realizing that everybody is in different situations. Let those who can keep a strict fast not judge those who cannot, and let those who do not keep a fast judge those who do. But let it not be said that fasting is not a necessary part of our walk with Christ. Being a couch potato is bad for you, a physically active life is healthier. Being a pew potato is bad for you, a spiritually active life, which includes fasting and charity and prayer, is healthier. We do what we can in the place we are at.

Food for the belly and the belly for food, but both will eventually go away, according to the Apostle Paul. We are not to judge another's servant since it is only by God's grace and not our own efforts that we are where we are.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Michael,

Thank you for very much for the helpful and insightful quotations.

The point for fruitful further thought here, is the way the Fathers treat the question of ‘health’ in terms of fasting. To further, somewhat, my earlier comments: it is taken as a widespread ‘standard’ in many circles of Orthodoxy today, that fasting is proper so long as it does not do damage to health (and here let us, for the moment, except the clear cases of children, the ill, those with special conditions, etc., where the council of the Church is quite clearly for lessened or modified fasting practices; what is of interest is the general principle of ascesis). This standard attitude certainly does have a founding in some of the writings of the Fathers; but there are also many others, where a care of ‘health’ is seen as something quite against the true ascesis of fasting—and I think there is interesting and fruitful territory here for a deeper consideration.

It would be good, in a discussion such as this, to explore the Fathers further on this question. There is clearly a place, in their testimony, for the balance of fasting with an eye towards (i.e. against) a debasement of the body, and this is often noted in common practice today. But there is also this strong note of counsel against succumbing to the wants, needs and ‘health’ of the body—of which we hear far less in our contemporary council on this spiritual ascesis.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Miss Mary M.,

Thank you for your note. You wrote:


In reading the about the saints […] they seemed to vary in practice, and were so individual in their spiritual practices, that it seems that how harshly someone fasts or not depends on that person's spiritual and/or physical constitution.

Indeed—and this we can really take as a ‘given’ for discussion. The counsel of the Church has always been that the canons (i.e. rules, norms) of fasting are to be pastorally applied. That is, they are guides, which priestly counsel rightly applies to each person as is best for his or her salvation. They are not cannons (with two ‘n’s: the weapons) to be aimed at the person, but guides to the creature’s growth into the Kingdom. And so we see this applied, not only in the lives of the saints, where fasting takes on different tones based on their spiritual ascent and needs; but also in the day-to-day life of the Church in the world, where fasting is measured out and approached according to the same norms.

But behind this pastoral reality lie canons and teachings which are there to give a right scope to such ascesis. Without the norms, we can never struggle rightly, for we do not know at what we aim, what we must modify, etc. And it is for this reason that it is beneficial to look, not just at the fact of differences amongst the saints and others, but also at the norms and ideals set out in the Church’s living heritage. It is in the mix of these that the Body of Christ leads His members to salvation.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Mary M.]

Fr. Dcn Matthew, you're quite right. Regardless of the differences between saints in fasting practices, I'm sure they were all of one accord as to the proper guidelines and their relation to the why of fasting. They had probably all made various adjustments to their fasting that ultimately lead to the practices we now assoicate with them. Had any of them felt that their practice was outside of the church's norms and ideals,they'd have dropped it immediately, regardless of how spiritually beneficial it seemed to be,and so should we.



Dear Miss Mary M.,

Thank you for your note. You wrote:



Indeed—and this we can really take as a ‘given’ for discussion. The counsel of the Church has always been that the canons (i.e. rules, norms) of fasting are to be pastorally applied. That is, they are guides, which priestly counsel rightly applies to each person as is best for his or her salvation. They are not cannons (with two ‘n’s: the weapons) to be aimed at the person, but guides to the creature’s growth into the Kingdom. And so we see this applied, not only in the lives of the saints, where fasting takes on different tones based on their spiritual ascent and needs; but also in the day-to-day life of the Church in the world, where fasting is measured out and approached according to the same norms.

But behind this pastoral reality lie canons and teachings which are there to give a right scope to such ascesis. Without the norms, we can never struggle rightly, for we do not know at what we aim, what we must modify, etc. And it is for this reason that it is beneficial to look, not just at the fact of differences amongst the saints and others, but also at the norms and ideals set out in the Church’s living heritage. It is in the mix of these that the Body of Christ leads His members to salvation.

INXC, Dcn Matthew