House blessings for non-Orthodox?

[Theodora E.]

I'm the president and webmaster for our local pan-Orthodox association. Several weeks ago I received an rather odd email through our website.

A woman requested a priest come to her home for a house blessing. She reported restless spirits, odd noises, husband seeing a black cloud over her, dog barking at nothing in middle of night, and "wanting peace in her home" after living in it for seven years. There was no mention of being Orthodox, or even Christian. No mention at all of God, a spiritual life, etc. A red flag that she probably wasn't Orthodox was that she'd been in a house for seven years without it being blessed once (she said it had never been done before and was surprised when I told her the homes of Orthodox are blessed yearly).

This email exchange went on over several days. She wanted me to line up a priest myself to do the house blessing. I referred her to the parish locator on our website since I did not know where she lived and told her to call whichever parish was closest to her. She would not answer my direct questions if she was Orthodox, just asked if she had to belong to a church to get a house blessing and kept asking when it could be done. I assume she was offended when I told her that a priest would probably want to talk with her for a bit first before agreeing to do a house blessing in her situation.

It doesn't seem to be uncommon for average folks to think that when you have "issues with restless spirits" in your home, you get a priest to fling some holy water about. This thinking seems to be reinforced by the popular media, although most people seem to think of Catholic priests for this. For all I know, the woman who emailed me tried the Catholics first and they wouldn't bite (she and her husband's first/last names were of an ethnic group that is predominantly Roman Catholic). I still don't know her thinking of why she thought of an Orthodox priest as the remedy to her situation.

When I mentioned the situation to my priest, he indicated he would not do a house blessing under such circumstances for someone who is pretty clearly not a believer. Other local priests I know would likely have the same opinion, from what I've heard them say about non-practicing Orthodox who come to them for baptisms, weddings, funerals, and the like. One even referred to doing blessings or sacraments for those who are non-believers as "throwing pearls before swine." My priest commented in a recent sermon about those who come to the Church just to get something out of it (a blessing, sacrament), not to worship.

Any thoughts on such a situation (especially from the priests here)?

[Paul Cowan]

Reminds me of the parable of the king who wanted to throw a feast and no one wanted to come so he made all the street people and travelers come and when he saw those not dressd for the wedding he threw them out into the utter darkness.

[Herman Blaydoe]

This person is looking for magic. We don't do magic. Perhaps she can find a shaman or wiccan to make her feel better, but certainly the sacraments are for those who believe. They are not a commodity or some generic spiritual "force".

[Mary]

I think it would be a very compassionate move, if someone would go visit her. Obviously, she's agitated and looking for help. She doesn't know we don't do magic. I'm no priest. But if I were, I'd go, or get my priest's blessing to go, just to talk to her. After all, she has come to the only place where she can get real help. If we turn her away, just because she doesn't doesn't know what she's asking for, where will she go?

[Mary]

Also, as far as I know, House Blessing and Holy Water aren't sacraments. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The Holy Water from the St Thomas, in India, was free for all who cared to come and drink.

Don't know if anyone else has read this story of Elder Porphyrios? On one of his house blessing rounds, he accidentally found himself in a house of prostitutes. The woman in charge was appalled, and said to him: "Father, do you know where you are and what kind of women live here?" Then, he became aware of where he was, but he said to her: "They are children of God too." And he blessed the house and the women before he left.

In Christ,
mary.

[Owen]

The Church is, herself, a Sacrament, and the life of the church is sacramental. There's not a thing about the life of the Church that is not sacramental, though some things are more sacramental than others. We do have to show some discernment when heterodox who are superstitious and/or mentally ill come asking for help of a sacramental nature.

[Cyprian (Humphrey)]

I agree with all the posters so far. The Blessings of the Church (and especially the Mysteries!) are not magic, and certainly are not "party favours" that we just hand out to all and sundry. Even the blessing of getting anointed at a festal service is done after the person venerates the icon or relic involved. So, even if they're not Orthodox, they've at least offered some sort of veneration (at least as far as mortal men can tell, as we can't see into their hearts). Blessings aren't necessarily restricted to Orthodox Christians, but we try not to bless people who willfully disdain the faith.

We should always be open to discuss this with people who are seeking help. Who knows, they might encounter the truth of Orthodoxy through this and become Orthodox themselves (although I suspect this might turn out to be statistically rare). What I can't understand though, is why they'd be reluctant to speak to a priest.

I wonder what led you to think she was offended by suggesting that a priest would want to talk with her for a bit. No commentary about that - just thinking out loud.

It sounds like she was looking for more of an exorcism than a Theophany related house-blessing anyway. If they're experiencing the phenomenon that you describe, I can understand their stress.

But they would definitely need to talk to a priest first, if for nothing else but to determine whether they actually need an exorcism, or just medication. I'm sorry if that sounds cynical, but it is an all too realistic possibility.

Note: Even though I have "Fr" as a title, I am not a priest, but merely an over-opinionated monk. We're still waiting for a priest to pop up with an informed opinion. :)

Fr Cyprian

[Eric Peterson]

There could be, I think, things this couple could be doing by themselves for the peace of their home. Prayer, reading the Holy Gospel, coming to faith, etc. (Maybe you could invite them to church?) It could be that they are estranged from faith somehow and, even if their house were to be blessed and exorcised 77 times, the spiritual issues would not go away, and may even worsen. If a man won't work a little to change his heart, I'm not sure what more can be done, because God is always offering Himself. It's our pushing Him away that's the problem. Or so it seems to me. Maybe it would be possible to meet with them and a priest, all of you together. These out of the blue e-mail situations are hard, because there's not a strong relationship to build on. You don't know them, they don't know you, and yet there's some sort of need there to be met somehow. Maybe you could give their names to monastics, and tell them that you have done so, that they will be prayed for. It's hard to tell just what to do here.

[Mary]

The Church is, herself, a Sacrament, and the life of the church is sacramental. There's not a thing about the life of the Church that is not sacramental, though some things are more sacramental than others. We do have to show some discernment when heterodox who are superstitious and/or mentally ill come asking for help of a sacramental nature.

I agree, that the very life of the Church is sacremental. But at the same time, we shouldn't forget that Jesus, the very Son of God, became man and allowed himself to be touched by sinful people. I agree, we're responsible to make sure that the things we hold as holy aren't desecrated by non-orthodox, or even orthodox, who do not love these things as we do. But when they come asking for help, for however selfish a reason, shouldn't we at least listen to them first, and find some teeny tiny bit of help for them?

Like the crumbs that fall from the table, for the dogs... there's always something we can do for them! Also, I was one of them, sometimes I forget I'm not and still join them. I try not to turn anyone away, because, I might be the only Orthodox person they ever meet. And I don't want to be resposible for hardening their hearts towards the Church, by my lack of compassion.

BTW - I do not define compassion as compromise. Just in case any one is wondering.

in Christ,
Mary

[Adrian]

I think Jesus did a lot for unbelievers and this may be an opportunity to save a soul. I don't know but if it would be possible I would suggest to go for it. I don't know if it is possible for the priest to pray with her but at least she can be allowed to come and take Holy Water after being instructed to dispose it properly. And she can sprinkle her walls with the Holy Water. In Romania there are Churches that have canisters outside full of Holy Water, not every Church but there are Churches like this, and everybody can come and take.

[Olga]

I think Jesus did a lot for unbelievers and this may be an opportunity to save a soul. I don't know but if it would be possible I would suggest to go for it. I don't know if it is possible for the priest to pray with her but at least she can be allowed to come and take Holy Water after being instructed to dispose it properly. And she can sprinkle her walls with the Holy Water. In Romania there are Churches that have canisters outside full of Holy Water, not every Church but there are Churches like this, and everybody can come and take.

Adrian, you're quite right that Christ did a lot for unbelievers, but let's not forget that even these unbelievers (like the Syro-Phoenician woman, Jairus the centurion, and the Samaritan woman) did not reject Christ, but, in their own limited way, recognised that He could help them, and approached Him in humility. What seems to be the case with this woman who wants her house blessed is that she refuses to meet with an Orthodox priest - for reasons that are quite unclear, I must say - which makes it impossible for her to "get what she wants", or even for her to be given an opportunity to "take a peek" at Orthodoxy and the great good the faith can give her.

To simply make holy water available to her is not the answer if she does not at least have some understanding of what it is, and what it is not. To give an example: Over the years, I have provided icons to many people who are not Orthodox, but who have some understanding of what an icon is, and who I know will treat the icon with respect and reverence. However, there are others who are fascinated with the "bells and smells" of Orthodoxy in a superficial way, and regard things like icons and holy water as exotic and magical, like talismans - such folks need to be patiently and carefully educated that this is not so. Icons can indeed be the source of miracles (I am convinced that the very survival of a significant branch of my family can be attributed to a little icon of the Mother of God, which is still in family hands), and I can attest to the incorruptibility of holy water. But these precious treasures should not, in my opinion, be handed out willy-nilly simply because someone asks for them.

[Theodora E.]

Mary, for the record, I didn't prevent the woman from getting a house blessing. I gave her the tool (parish locator on website) to find the parish near her. If she chose to not make a call to whichever parish was closest, I can't help that. I don't have a clergy contact on my iPhone for "house blessings for non-believers that really want magic."

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Mary,

You have mentioned:

"Don't know if anyone else has read this story of Elder Porphyrios? On one of his house blessing rounds, he accidentally found himself in a house of prostitutes. The woman in charge was appalled, and said to him: "Father, do you know where you are and what kind of women live here?" Then, he became aware of where he was, but he said to her: "They are children of God too." And he blessed the house and the women before he left."

This is in reality the norm or usual attitude within the Orthodox Church or at least used to be and I assume still is usually. Thanks be to God it is around the Bishops and Priests here. The thinking in situations such as this woman and her family that is said to be experiencing disturbances by evil spirits is typically addressed by Bishops and Priests along the lines of "This family needs help, they are made in the image and likeness of God as such let us help the them out of the situation they are in, the poor people must not be getting much sleep." We can bring to mind much, such as blessed are the merciful. Hence I very much appreciate Adrian's comments, "In Romania there are Churches that have canisters outside full of Holy Water, not every Church but there are Churches like this, and everybody can come and take."

This does not seem to me to be a matter of being willy nilly about the mysteries of the Church, but rather it conveys that the Church loves mankind. Do keep in mind that when waters are blessed (the EP recently did so at the Mississippi) one is free to bring to mind the prayers of sanctification that sanctify all, that is because God is good and loves mankind. Indeed, he loves even those that have misunderstandings about the mysteries in the Church. If the person is "looking for magic" as Herman has suggested it would not be the first time that much is not understood. Nevertheless, the family is looking for help and it is not unusual for people in such circumstances to be drawn toward an Orthodox Priest, even reluctantly.

This sounds so strange to me because in years past I have seen Orthodox Priests help all sorts of people made in the image and likeness of God in not good situations and go way out of their way to help even when people had some very strange understandings of the Church. Nevertheless, if in these days a Priest in your area can not be found on an iphone contact for "house blessings for non-believers that really want magic." then surely the faithful wherever they may be are free to ask Saint Nicholas to intercede for the family.

O champion wonderworker and superb servant of Christ,
thou who pourest out for all the world
the most precious myrrh of mercy
and an inexhaustible sea of miracles,
I praise thee with love, O Saint Nicholas;
and as thou art one having boldness toward the Lord,
from all dangers do thou deliver us,
that we may cry to thee:
Rejoice, O Nicholas, Great Wonderworker!

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Mary]

This sounds so strange to me because in years past I have seen Orthodox Priests help all sorts of people made in the image and likeness of God in not good situations and go way out of their way to help even when people had some very strange understandings of the Church. Nevertheless, if in these days a Priest in your area can not be found on an iphone contact for "house blessings for non-believers that really want magic." then surely the faithful wherever they may be are free to ask Saint Nicholas to intercede for the family.

O champion wonderworker and superb servant of Christ,
thou who pourest out for all the world
the most precious myrrh of mercy
and an inexhaustible sea of miracles,
I praise thee with love, O Saint Nicholas;
and as thou art one having boldness toward the Lord,
from all dangers do thou deliver us,
that we may cry to thee:
Rejoice, O Nicholas, Great Wonderworker!

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Thank you Matthew! What you describe, is the Church my heart recognizes. But you've convicted me too. I did not think of praying for the poor lady and her family. I figured, she didn't contact me, so she's not my problem. How heartless and selfish I am!

Thank you! I will pray for her too.

in Christ,
Mary.

[Olga]

My dear Matthew

I quite agree with what you've said. However, it seems to me that various efforts have been made in good faith to help this poor woman, but she seems to not wish to make the crucial step to approach an Orthodox priest who, in all probability, can, and will, help her. We can only hope that the prayers of people who know this woman will benefit her, that she will change her mind and talk to a priest.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Mary,

We are all in the same boat together, I beat you to the self-punch before I wrote the post.

In all of this though we should see that there are differences in free will exercised in lake choice and free will within the ark of salvation, waters and people are blessed by the Bishops and Priests. Mankind is prayed for, even for those in prisons and dungeons, sickness, sorrow, misfortune and tribulations etc.

Life vests, ropes and dinghies can be thrown over board, even if they are thrown at people things can work out.

Have a blessed Nativity.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Mary]

My dear Matthew

I quite agree with what you've said. However, it seems to me that various efforts have been made in good faith to help this poor woman, but she seems to not wish to make the crucial step to approach an Orthodox priest who, in all probability, can, and will, help her. We can only hope that the prayers of people who know this woman will benefit her, that she will change her mind and talk to a priest.

If she has never spoken to a priest before, or even seen one, she might be scared to contact one. It might help her, if a priest called her and said something like: "I heard you've been asking for help. What can I do for you?" Just a thought.

When I have a problem, even if I'm about to burst, I usually avoid talking to someone. But I desparately wish that someone would see all my signs of distress and ask me if I'm doing ok. Somehow, it's easier to spill my guts when I feel like someone is interested enough to ask me. But when I dump on someone without invitation, I feel like I'm imposing on them. Unless I know them real well, in which case I'm quite shameless in my requests for help.

[Adrian]

Actually the Churches that offer Holy Water in canisters for everybody to take are very busy since many people visit them for Holy Water and the priests received gifts from God. One Church is led by a monk that spent 10 years on the Mountains on the time of communism and that today has many visions of Holy Mother of God and another Church has a priest about which people speak of being gifted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_water_in_Eastern_Christianity
For people that don't know , usually Holy Water sprinkled on the walls of house and car can keep devils and trouble away. Best thing would be if a priest would do house and car blessings, since the priests beside sprinkling with Holy Water asks for blessings for that house and people living there. Also Holy Water can be taken each morning on empty stomach to keep trouble away, unless that day you want to take Holy Communion that needs to be taken on empty stomach.

[Adrian]

A story about Holy Water:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/chudesa_e.htm
"‘I Cannot Drink!’

In one medical book on psychiatry, which was published at the beginning of the XXth century, its author, a professor, wrote, that he divided insane persons into two categories: those who were possessed, and those patients with physical damage of the nervous system.

He determined the latter in a very simple way. He gave them sacred water to drink: nobody could force the possessed ones to drink it!

Here is a real case, confirming this.

Our acquaintance visited mother E., a very old nun of high spiritual life. Many people from different parts of the country visited her for spiritual help.

The nun accepted visitors only in the mornings. She listened to their questions, prayed, and then gave answers (when it was necessary); she also gave them sacred water.

According to witnesses, even people with incurable diseases were cured by this water.

As our acquaintance told us, she and several other people arrived, when the nun had already finished receiving. The nun’s novice told us:

— Find yourselves lodging for the night in the village, the nun will accept you tomorrow.

— I know one old woman who lets people stay at her place for the night, — said one of the women who came to see the nun.

— Aren’t you going with us? — we asked her.

o The old woman will not let me in, —the woman said confidently.

We did not believe her, and persuaded her to go with us. The old woman met us pleasantly, and agreed to give us shelter for the night… When she noticed the woman who had told us about the

lodging she waved her hands at her:

— And you go, go — I shall not let you in.

Not understanding what was the matter, we began to ask the elderly lady to let the woman spend the night at her place.

— You do not know her, — said the old woman, — why, she never drinks the nun’s water, she pours it out in the forest.

To prove this, the old woman took out a bottle from behind the icons, poured a glass of water and gave it to the woman whom she did not want to let in.

— Take, drink, and then I shall let you in.

The woman took the glass in her hands, held it for some time. We could see from the expression of her face, that some kind of a struggle was taking place in her soul. She returned the glass, not even trying to take a sip out of it.

— I cannot drink, — she said."

[Herman Blaydoe]

How easy it is for us armchair-theologians, we internet advisors, to come to such quick conclusions knowing almost nothing about the situation at hand. We do not know this person or her spiritual condition. We can certainly rationalize any action taken or desired any number of ways. Yes, pray for this person, that she be moved to seek refuge in the Ark of Salvation.

Even our Lord refused (at first) a request: Matthew 15:21-28. This is why we have priests and bishops, to make these calls with discernment and a hopefully better knowledge of the circumstances involved. I do not think it is our place to second-guess the priest. Demons can be chased away, but without our Lord's protection, they may be back (Matthew 12:43-45).

Perhaps this woman might be given some holy water, but what then when it "doesn't work"? After all, miracles do not come with a money-back guarantee or a warranty. Even if it does "work" there is also the admonition from Matthew 7:6. Maybe things are going the way God wants them to. Let it be blessed.

Or so it seems to this bear of very little brain
Herman the Pooh

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Adrain,

Since the woman couldn't drink the Holy water, it sounds like such a dreadful ending, I suspect many of us don't like it.

Being hard pressed in the hope of the articulation of accurate reflections of the goodwill of God towards mankind which remains precious and accessible in the Orthodox Church, why not seeing that while she could not drink, she could still breath, and make the sign of the cross in the air? That seems a more Church militant and triumphant movement?


Have a blessed Nativity.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Herman Blaydoe]

I, for one, am going with:

Our sister Theodora did the correct and Christian thing and covered all the bases. I'd call it a "home run".

She did not reject this rather bizarre request outright nor did she presume to tell this woman what was or was not appropriate.
She tried to put this woman in contact with a priest so that someone with training and discernment could properly evaluate the situation and take appropriate action.
She consulted her own priest on what would have been the right thing to do.
She bravely and forthrightly put herself "out there" here in this forum, seeking our advice for what it's worth.
(HINT for Theodora: it is worth every penny you paid for it...)


Herman the Pooh

[Mary]

I, for one, am going with:

Our sister Theodora did the correct and Christian thing and covered all the bases. I'd call it a "home run".
Herman the Pooh

"For the record" - I for one, was not telling Theodora what to do. She did not ask for advice about THE situation - she said "Any thoughts on such A situation" - so I shared my thoughts, thinking in my mind of generalized situation, of a person coming to the orthodox church, for help. My fault, is not taking seriously her request for a priest's opinion. I am not a priest. But it was in brackets that she said: (especially from the priests here): so, i assumed there was room for non-priestly opinions as well.

If one does not wish to hear opposing views to one's own opinions, then don't ask questions here. I'm not here to bend everyone to my will, and my way of seeing things, and I don't wish to agree with everyone's idea and opinion posted here either. In situations that I know that only those directly involved can help me make a decision, I don't ask for advice here, nor to I present the situation as a 'case study' to be examined and commented on. (at least, that's what I aim to do, but sometimes I post without thinking, and do the very things I do not wish to do.)

in Christ,
Mary.

PS - Theodora, I hope I didn't offend you. I did not, in any way, wish to suggest that you did not do enough to help that woman. I like to brain storm, and have been known to come up with some really bizarre ideas to solve a problem, because I have trouble accepting that something cannot be done. Please forgive me.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Herman,

We too can see that Theodora knows the Church to be first and foremost the place of encounter that all mankind is called to embrace and her actions to convey messages to actualize that hope had been addressed.

The presumption of correctness that responses to requests for help that Theodora described that are much different than the traditions that we have seen in our lives in the Church for many years might be in itself a misperception or Orthodox ecclesiology. In retrospect and to this very day the norm is when a person especially under difficult circumstances turns to the Orthodox Church for help they are not turned away to be left in such a situation. I have never heard of such a thing as discernment for not helping out.

If the Priests and Bishops that are neigh unto the people in the situation discern the antithesis of those long held traditions then the entire Church including will continue to pray, that is our tradition. As you well know, many are prayed for in the liturgy and we can bring to mind the petition: Help us save us and have mercy on us Oh God by thy grace. We are human beings and part of humanity, us includes this woman and her family that is requesting help and mercy. It is by God's grace that we are in the Orthodox Church and specifically in the place of reconciliation and encounter. Even to this woman and her family with her as you say bizarre request "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things" can be applicable.

Theodora has mentioned and presented the following for us to hear:

"When I mentioned the situation to my priest, he indicated he would not do a house blessing under such circumstances for someone who is pretty clearly not a believer. Other local priests I know would likely have the same opinion, from what I've heard them say about non-practicing Orthodox who come to them for baptisms, weddings, funerals, and the like. One even referred to doing blessings or sacraments for those who are non-believers as "throwing pearls before swine." My priest commented in a recent sermon about those who come to the Church just to get something out of it (a blessing, sacrament), not to worship."

We used to be taught privately and publically that even when man's fallen motivations deep down inside or superficially through ignorance or such things relative to the blessings encountered in the Church (or from the Church) that God's grace therein is helpful in such circumstances and indeed every circumstance.

I find myself wondering what's wrong with thanks be to God they are in the Church so that with God's grace we can all worship him in Spirit and Truth. By means of such ways that will remain within our traditions (doxology) we often also can hear Glory to God in the highest, on earth peace, good will toward mankind. That is what we are all called to do, all creation doth hymn Thee, to the glory of God.

Surely people turning to Church can be potentially positive as well even with of shortcomings (non-believing or lack of faith) or circumstances that can be improved upon through chastisement or mercy, the beloved baggage of Saint Nicholas!

Well Herman, I just wanted to share some thoughts, have a blessed Nativity.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Theodora E.]

Theodora has mentioned and presented the following for us to hear:

"When I mentioned the situation to my priest, he indicated he would not do a house blessing under such circumstances for someone who is pretty clearly not a believer. Other local priests I know would likely have the same opinion, from what I've heard them say about non-practicing Orthodox who come to them for baptisms, weddings, funerals, and the like. One even referred to doing blessings or sacraments for those who are non-believers as "throwing pearls before swine." My priest commented in a recent sermon about those who come to the Church just to get something out of it (a blessing, sacrament), not to worship."

We used to be taught privately and publically that even when man's fallen motivations deep down inside or superficially through ignorance or such things relative to the blessings encountered in the Church (or from the Church) that God's grace therein is helpful in such circumstances and indeed every circumstance.

I find myself wondering what's wrong with thanks be to God they are in the Church so that with God's grace we can all worship him in Spirit and Truth. By means of such ways that will remain within our traditions (doxology) we often also can hear Glory to God in the highest, on earth peace, good will toward mankind. That is what we are all called to do, all creation doth hymn Thee, to the glory of God.

Surely people turning to Church can be potentially positive as well even with of shortcomings (non-believing or lack of faith) or circumstances that can be improved upon through chastisement or mercy, the beloved baggage of Saint Nicholas!



Matthew, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, but this is what I'm taking from it.

You talk about "people in the Church" after quoting me on what my priest (and other local priests) have said about non-practicing Orthodox wanting baptisms, weddings, and the like in the Church. Let me be very clear: when I say "non-practicing Orthodox," I mean those who were baptized in the Church, and perhaps attended very occasionally as children, but haven't practiced in years, and in some cases, decades. It's the people who haven't been inside any Orthodox parish in ages, have never set foot in my particular parish (for instance), but yet still call up a priest wanting their children baptized because "it's the thing to do." They call out of the blue. Current priest requires someone in these circumstances to come to church for at least a few weeks (every Sunday) before a baptism would take place. And of course, serious discussion. He feels once they're at church, then he can work with them on regular attendance, bringing older children to Sunday school, actually practicing the faith. My previous priest would get such calls and absolutely, positively refuse in all such cases. From what current priest has said, it's not uncommon for folks to want to just get their child baptized without any church attendance on their part at all, aside from coming to church for the baptism.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Theodora,

This is nothing new, calls for baptisms funerals etc. However the out right refusals that you mentioned I'm not familiar with, nor I'm I familiar with not helping a family that has conveyed:

"She reported restless spirits, odd noises, husband seeing a black cloud over her, dog barking at nothing in middle of night, and "wanting peace in her home" after living in it for seven years.

"When I mentioned the situation to my priest, he indicated he would not do a house blessing under such circumstances for someone who is pretty clearly not a believer."

Nevertheless these are the local Priests calls, so if they determine these days as you have mentioned that the family should not be helped, then God help them and God help us all. One has to wonder what Saint Cyprian might say on the matter, I recall he would not have become a believer had it not been for St. Justina, so things worked out ok there.

Those are my thoughts on the matter, I hope the dog is ok as well.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Eugenia Gotsis]

This family has asked for help. We have plenty of examples of God gracing people of other faiths or agnostics. Metaphorically, they are in the middle of the ocean clinging onto a rock with sharks in a circle. They cannot see beyond except their crying help, so it's up to the "lifeboat" to break the circle and offer help. Who are we to deny them. Also, like someone sited earlier, it may bring them to the path of God.
Forgive my intrusion,
INXC Jenny

[Theodora E.]

This family has asked for help. We have plenty of examples of God gracing people of other faiths or agnostics. Metaphorically, they are in the middle of the ocean clinging onto a rock with sharks in a circle. They cannot see beyond except their crying help, so it's up to the "lifeboat" to break the circle and offer help. Who are we to deny them. Also, like someone sited earlier, it may bring them to the path of God.
Forgive my intrusion,
INXC Jenny

We are also told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. If someone cannot bring herself to enter her zip code into a website to find the nearest parish, and then email/call the priest, well, she's got more issues than a house blessing would help with. She said she wanted peace in her house, but expecting someone else to set it up for her is extreme passivity.

Part of what irks me about the entire situation is that the woman seemed to think it was her "right" to get a house blessing. There are no "rights" in the Church (some women might think they have the "right" to become a priest, for example, but that definitely isn't going to happen). The modern concept of "rights" is not part of the Church. I've run into other folks who think they have a "right" to Communion without Confession. For someone who is not a member of the Church, and appears to not be a Christian at all, to expect the house blessing is highly presumptuous.

Was I supposed to call every priest in the area (there are 30+ parishes in my area) until I found one who was willing to *possibly* do it? And what if one was not willing to do the house blessing, if after talking to the woman, he decided it would not be appropriate for an Orthodox priest to do it? I gave the woman the tool (parish locator on website), and if she would not take some responsibility for action in her situation and use it, well, God gave us free will, did he not? Our priests (and bishops) have to do vetting in such situations, they just don't blindly fulfill whatever request is made of them.

[Herman Blaydoe]

This family has asked for help. We have plenty of examples of God gracing people of other faiths or agnostics. Metaphorically, they are in the middle of the ocean clinging onto a rock with sharks in a circle. They cannot see beyond except their crying help, so it's up to the "lifeboat" to break the circle and offer help. Who are we to deny them. Also, like someone sited earlier, it may bring them to the path of God.
Forgive my intrusion,
INXC Jenny

And she was GIVEN help, she was told how to contact a priest. She was thrown a "lifeline", like everyone else is it up to her to grab hold. Even our Lord refused someone at first and it was to her salvation and our edification. God's grace cannot be stopped. He will have grace on whom He will have grace, even if it is not in the way we prefer it.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain
Herman the Pooh

[Mary]

We are also told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. If someone cannot bring herself to enter her zip code into a website to find the nearest parish, and then email/call the priest, well, she's got more issues than a house blessing would help with. She said she wanted peace in her house, but expecting someone else to set it up for her is extreme passivity.

We know that we're supposed to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. But she doesn't. However, there's not much you can do for her, if she didn't trust you enough to tell you her zip code.

When you're paralyzed, (in this case, with fear), you really have no choice but to rely on someone else to do your work for you. No one likes being paralyzed physically. We're not as quick to recognize it when our souls are paralyzed. But I'm sure it happens to the soul too. I know it's happened to me. And all I could do was beg for help, and hope that someone would take pity and help. I didn't know how to help myself. Even when told what to do, I couldn't do it. It happens.




Part of what irks me about the entire situation is that the woman seemed to think it was her "right" to get a house blessing. There are no "rights" in the Church (some women might think they have the "right" to become a priest, for example, but that definitely isn't going to happen). The modern concept of "rights" is not part of the Church. I've run into other folks who think they have a "right" to Communion without Confession. For someone who is not a member of the Church, and appears to not be a Christian at all, to expect the house blessing is highly presumptuous.


We're all presumptuous. To some degree or another. I expect my priest to hear all my confessions and continue to treat me like a normal person, when in truth, he might want to turn away from me in disgust.


Was I supposed to call every priest in the area (there are 30+ parishes in my area) until I found one who was willing to *possibly* do it? And what if one was not willing to do the house blessing, if after talking to the woman, he decided it would not be appropriate for an Orthodox priest to do it? I gave the woman the tool (parish locator on website), and if she would not take some responsibility for action in her situation and use it, well, God gave us free will, did he not? Our priests (and bishops) have to do vetting in such situations, they just don't blindly fulfill whatever request is made of them.

Didn't Jesus say if someone makes you carry their stuff for a mile, offer to do it for the second one too? Making the phone calls for her would be going an extra mile, perhaps many extra miles. Perhaps I see things this way, because I have been helped to such a degree that I will never be able to repay the ones who have helped me. One friend in particular, went an extra mile for me every day, for 3 years. In fact, not only did I need a lot of help, I also needed to be reassured, over and over, that I was loved, because the fact that I was receiving help, didn't translate as love, in my twisted, broken, paralyzed soul.

And, yes, God has given us free will. We're all free to choose how we're going to help each other, and where we draw the line. I'm just sharing what I would do - because you asked. The way I see it is - why should I receive help, while she is refused? Would I refuse her if she were my sister or my mother? Or a long lost friend? (Since I'm the only orthodox among my family and friends, this isn't hard to imagine). And since I have already received help, I cannot say 'no' to anyone else. (Although, I did tell my neighbor that she couldn't borrow my car....) =)

Forgive me. I tend to identify myself with most anyone who has a negative experience. I dont' do it on purpose. Maybe it's wrong, I don't know. But when I overhear anyone speaking ill of anyone else, or even speaking to me about someone else in a negative way, I sort of take it personally, and feel like they're talking about me. I hope God heals me of this lack of boundary between me and everyone else whom I think might be suffering (if it is something that needs healing).

In Christ,
mary.

[Theodora E.]

Mary, you talk about giving this woman help, but ultimately it would be up to the PRIEST contacted if a house blessing was done for this family. Not me, not you. The priest.

[Mary]

Mary, you talk about giving this woman help, but ultimately it would be up to the PRIEST contacted if a house blessing was done for this family. Not me, not you. The priest.

I agree. But there are more ways of helping a person than by blessing their house. If a priest determines that a house blessing is not in order, is she then, to be left without any help whatsoever? Is it outside the scope of the Orthodox Church members, to befriend this woman? If she is unwilling to come to church, is it wrong to keep in touch with her, and check up on her every once in a while, and ask her if she's found help for her problem? (that is, if she is willing to keep in touch).

After all, what good is a blessed house, if you're going to invite the spirits back in? It would do her no good, in fact, it might be worse than before, if she also doesn't learn to seek protection in the church, by attending church, by becoming a part of it, etc. But who's going to teach her all that? To refuse her point blank, is a bit drastic, don't you think? We know such things, because it's a part of our life. But maybe she doesn't know, that messing with the spirit world is real, and it is serious. There's no permanent fix, unless we're actively involved in the life of the church.

in Christ,
Mary.

[Mary]

I remembered another thing last night. Remember the time that Jesus fed the 5,000 people + who had forgotten to bring their picnic lunches with them up the mountain?

Somehow, the disciples became aware of their need, and brought it to Jesus, along with a good, practical solution - to send all the people away to the nearby villages to get something to eat. Not at all an unreasonable request, since they had been able to walk up the mountain, I'm assuming they weren't all paralyzed and incapable of taking care of themselves.

But Jesus said to his disciples, "You feed them." Now, that is an unreasonable request, if there was any. How could they? So they tried to puzzle it out in human ways, how much money it would take, etc, and St Andrew took stock of the resources they had - a little boy's lunch. And that was all that was needed. Jesus didn't ask them for something they didn't have, he already knew what he could do with what little they did have. They just had to figure it out and give it to him.

in Christ,
Mary.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I agree. But there are more ways of helping a person than by blessing their house. If a priest determines that a house blessing is not in order, is she then, to be left without any help whatsoever? Is it outside the scope of the Orthodox Church members, to befriend this woman? If she is unwilling to come to church, is it wrong to keep in touch with her, and check up on her every once in a while, and ask her if she's found help for her problem? (that is, if she is willing to keep in touch).

Is it our place to second guess the priest? Are we so much wiser? Lots of "if"s in there.


After all, what good is a blessed house, if you're going to invite the spirits back in? It would do her no good, in fact, it might be worse than before, if she also doesn't learn to seek protection in the church, by attending church, by becoming a part of it, etc. But who's going to teach her all that? To refuse her point blank, is a bit drastic, don't you think? We know such things, because it's a part of our life. But maybe she doesn't know, that messing with the spirit world is real, and it is serious. There's no permanent fix, unless we're actively involved in the life of the church.

in Christ,
Mary.

And that is all some people are sayin'.

Herman the Pooh

[Herman Blaydoe]

I remembered another thing last night. Remember the time that Jesus fed the 5,000 people + who had forgotten to bring their picnic lunches with them up the mountain?

Somehow, the disciples became aware of their need, and brought it to Jesus, along with a good, practical solution - to send all the people away to the nearby villages to get something to eat. Not at all an unreasonable request, since they had been able to walk up the mountain, I'm assuming they weren't all paralyzed and incapable of taking care of themselves.

But Jesus said to his disciples, "You feed them." Now, that is an unreasonable request, if there was any. How could they? So they tried to puzzle it out in human ways, how much money it would take, etc, and St Andrew took stock of the resources they had - a little boy's lunch. And that was all that was needed. Jesus didn't ask them for something they didn't have, he already knew what he could do with what little they did have. They just had to figure it out and give it to him.

in Christ,
Mary.

It is pretty easy to figure out what needs to be done when the Lord is telling you directly "do this", even if it seems strange or hard. It is another thing to know what to do in situations where the direction is not so clear. Not a criticism, just a little thought from a bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Mary]

Is it our place to second guess the priest? Are we so much wiser? Lots of "if"s in there.

Herman the Pooh

As far as I understand... no priest has been found who is willing to visit her. I'd definitely 'second guess' a priest who isnt' even willing to go talk to the woman face to face. Things aren't as clear sometimes, when talking on the phone. And also - we're not under bondage to our priest, they too are human and make wrong decisions. Obedience is not the same thing as being brainwashed. And, yes, it is possible to be wiser than a priest - they do not have a corner on wisdom. There were a lot of saints who were ordinary folks, who were never ordained. Tailors, cooks, slaves, children. To name a few. Oh yes, even women.


It is pretty easy to figure out what needs to be done when the Lord is telling you directly "do this", even if it seems strange or hard. It is another thing to know what to do in situations where the direction is not so clear. Not a criticism, just a little thought from a bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

Nice excuse.

We all know in our hearts what we must do. I'm very thankful that Theodora brought this up, because in the process of responding to her, God has shown me a crucial area in my own heart, where I've been keeping some people out and letting others in; willing to go any number of extra miles for some and not for others. So now, I know what I must do, and the Lord didn't speak to me directly, as he did to his disciples, but he has spoken to me through you.

Thanks Theodora. And Herman.

in Christ,
Mary.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Herman,

I received your notification, thank you in advance for your comments. I did preview this before posting it.

I and would like to share some thoughts with you and others in this thread, I think that in this situation the direction is clear.

You have mentioned:


Even a refusal can be salvific, according to St. Matthew...
How easy it is for us armchair-theologians, we internet advisors, to come to such quick conclusions knowing almost nothing about the situation at hand. We do not know this person or her spiritual condition. We can certainly rationalize any action taken or desired any number of ways. Yes, pray for this person, that she be moved to seek refuge in the Ark of Salvation.

Even our Lord refused (at first) a request: Matthew 15:21-28. This is why we have priests and bishops, to make these calls with discernment and a hopefully better knowledge of the circumstances involved. I do not think it is our place to second-guess the priest. Demons can be chased away, but without our Lord's protection, they may be back (Matthew 12:43-45).

Perhaps this woman might be given some holy water, but what then when it "doesn't work"? After all, miracles do not come with a money-back guarantee or a warranty. Even if it does "work" there is also the admonition from Matthew 7:6. Maybe things are going the way God wants them to. Let it be blessed.

We have heard in this thread all sorts of reasoning presenting and applying Holy writ and the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ relative to this matter, but it seems it may be helpful for us to remember that God is perfect, as such when Christ speaks it is with complete and perfect knowledge of the matter at hand. We can bring to mind the words of Saint Peter, Thou knowest all things; Thou knowest that I love Thee"

I think in this matter we must conclude that obedience to the commandments of Christ as in the parable of the Good Samaritan can move us beyond our reasoning's or justifications for behavior to leave things for this woman as they are. In the aforementioned parable there is no teaching conveyed to us by Christ to let the man who fell upon robbers as such and leave him in such a place. For things to be go via the way God wants them to go, namely following the authentic teachings of Christ for the salvation of man we are taught rightly what we should do by Christ. It is not by chance that this parable is read on the 25th Sunday after Pentecost.

There are some that say the Innkeeper represents the clergy, and the good Samaritan is Christ. Some say the "certain man" in the parable is Adam and all of mankind as in the comments presented below from Saint Nicholas Russian Orthodox Church in Dallas Texas! Might this parable provide some guidance for all of us relative to this thread, it seems to me to fit in rightly.

The Parable of the Good Samaritan is only in the Evangelist Luke's Gospel (Luke 10:25-37), and is read on the 25th Sunday after Pentecost. This is always very close to the Nativity Fast. Why is the reading of this parable particularly apropos at this time of the year? There is a much deeper meaning to this parable than the external aspects of it. Think of the implications of the event that Nativity fast prepares us for. This parable displays those implications in a The wondrous and hidden way.

Questions about the Parable of the Good Samaritan

The Parable of the Good Samaritan is only in the Evangelist Luke's Gospel (Luke 10:25-37), and is read on the 25th Sunday after Pentecost. This is always very close to the Nativity Fast.

QUESTION 1

Why is the reading of this parable particularly apropos at this time of the year? There is a much deeper meaning to this parable than the external aspects of it. Think of the implications of the event that Nativity fast prepares us for. This parable displays those implications in a
The wondrous and hidden way.

ANSWER 1

The external aspect of the parable of the Good Samaritan is a teaching concerning true charity. The inner meaning is a wonderful description of the ministry of Jesus Christ, and the effects of the incarnation on the state of man. At the time of year we read this parable, we are close to the Nativity Fast, which prepares us for the commemoration of the incarnation.

QUESTION 2

The parable is the second response to the question of a lawyer. Their encounter began as follows:

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? {26} He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? {27} And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. {28} And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(Luke 10:25-28)

In this context, what is a "lawyer"?
Why did the lawyer ask his question?
The answer he gave quoted scripture. Which?
What is peculiar about the answer of the lawyer? Does his answer indicate that he knew anything about Jesus and His teachings?

ANSWER 2

A lawyer was a Jewish teacher, a so-called expert in the Law of Moses. The lawyer was one of many who asked questioned in order to trip up Jesus, in order to find some basis on which to judge him,
and have Him done away with. The lawyer's answer to Jesus' question is remarkable, because he quotes two passages of scripture from separate books of the law, and in so doing, binds them as one,
cohesive thought. The passages he quotes are from Deuteronomy and Leviticus:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: {5} And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

{6} And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: {7} And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. {8} And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
{9} And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates. " (Deu 6:4-9)

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD.
" (Lev 19:18)

The lawyer must have heard of Jesus teaching, and was repeating it.

QUESTION 3

The Lawyer was not satisfied with this answer, and continued to interrogate Jesus, so Jesus began the parable:

And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. {29} But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbor? {30} And Jesus answering said, A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. (Luke 10:28-30)

What is the external answer the parable gives?
Who does the "certain man" represent?
What does the road from Jerusalem to Jericho represent? Take special not of the tense of the verb in the expression, "going down" (please note, the KJV and other mistranslate this text "went down".

ANSWER 3

The parable Jesus relates answers the question "Who is my neighbor", and provides and elegant description of true charity. The deeper meaning and hidden teaching is given by the symbolism of the events and characters in the parable.

The "certain man" is Adam and al his descendants - all of mankind. This parable is describing man's condition and the means of his restoration. There is much to this tale, as our sickness is grave, and not healed easily or all at once.

The word "Jerusalem" is interpreted "Vision of peace", and has always indicated the heavenly state. The man was headed to Jericho, which is in the valley away from Jerusalem, and indicates, as Blessed Theophylact teaches, that he was traveling to: "a place sunk down low and suffocating with heat, that is, to life of passions". The tense of the verb is "going down", not "went" down". This trip, from Jerusalem to Jericho, then represents our fallen human nature, which is continuously going down towards a passionate life, if not for the mercy and help of God.

QUESTION 4

"... A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. (Luke 10:30)

What do the thieves represent?
Explain how the man is stripped of his raiment. What does this mean?
Why is the man left "half dead"? this has an important spiritual meaning.

ANSWER 4

Demons

QUESTION 5

"And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. {32} And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side." (Luke 10:31-32)

There are two interpretations to the actions of the priest and the Levite. One is immediately obvious, and is unfortunately the only meaning people assimilate. The other meaning is much more profound.

What is the immediately apparent teaching because of the inaction and apparent unwillingness to help of the priest and the Levite?
Let us explore the deeper meaning. What doe the priest and the Levite represent?
Why did the things the priest and Levite represent "pass by"?
there is yet more to know. The priest passed by on the other side, and the Levite at least came and looked upon the half dead man, although he also did nothing. Why is there a difference?

ANSWER 5 Lack of charity, Priest - the law, Levite - the prophets

QUESTION 6

" But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him ..." (Luke 10:33)

Who is this "Samaritan"? What kind of emotional resonance would this name have among the Jews? What therefore is the meaning of the term "Samaritan" in this context?

ANSWER 6

The Samaritan is Jesus Christ.

QUESTION 7

And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. (Luke 10:34)

So much of the profound meaning of the parable is present here in one short sentence!

What does the Oil and wine represent? The Holy Fathers have at times seen three different, compatible meanings in the oil and the wine.
What does the beast represent?
what does the binding up the wounds represent?

ANSWER 7

Oil - mercy

QUESTION 8

And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. (Luke 10:34)

The inn is very significant. What does it represent? Why did the Samaritan take the man there?

ANSWER 8

Inn - the church.

QUESTION 9

"And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee." (Luke 10:35)

ANSWER 9

Inkeeper - the clergy.

Various interpretations have been given concerning the two pence. Explain.
"Who" is the innkeeper?

QUESTION 10

"And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee." (Luke 10:35)

The Samaritan's instructions are a veiled reference to what?

ANSWER 10

Second coming.

On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

I hope this was appropriately put forth here and all of us can say a prayer for this woman and her family, it is not very hard to make room in the inn for such things.


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Herman Blaydoe]

I don't see what this has to to with anything. The woman was not ignored. She was offered such help as was deemed appropriate, she was not "passed by". Are you claiming that the action taken represents a "lack of mercy"? If so, I most respectfully disagree.

[Father David Moser]

As a priest, I must say that I would be very cautious about a 3rd party calling me to perform a house blessing for someone whom I had never met and who refuses to darken the door of the Church. I would be more than happy to meet with such a person to discuss what might be done for their spiritual benefit, but if they are unwilling to come to the Church then there are not a lot of possibilities open. Blessings are not "magic" and although I would do everything in my power to give a blessing wherever requested, simply blessing a home without some kind of additional spiritual effort would be at best useless, and possibly even damaging to the eternal salvation of the persons involved.

Fr David Moser

[Mary]

Fr David,

if I were to make a phone call on her behalf, I'd say something like: " I got a call from a woman who doesn't seem to be orthodox, and she wants a priest to do a house blessing. I do not know if a house blessing would be in order or not, but would you be willing to meet with her or call her, and find out if there's anything we can do to help her? She's not willing to trust me enough to answer my questions or follow my suggestions."

Would this be an unacceptable 3rd party call? Of course, if she refuses to talk to the very priest from whom she expects a house blessing, there's not much that can be done for her.

in Christ,
Mary.

[Father David Moser]

if I were to make a phone call on her behalf, I'd say something like: ...

Would this be an unacceptable 3rd party call?

That would seem to me to be the kind of thing that a priest would expect to hear. Just be aware that the next question would be a request for name, phone number, address etc. or possibly a suggestion that the other person contact him directly or through the parish.

I get phone calls and emails all the time from random unknown people asking for this or that (weddings are popular requests - sometimes baptisms) and my first response is - come to Church (insert service times here), meet me there and then we can see what is appropriate. 9 times out of 10 that's the last I ever hear from that person. Sometimes there might be a reason why it is not possible for a person to come to the Church (disability, illness, etc) and in those cases we usually end up talking some more about the situation. Sometimes, if it seems appropriate, I will arrange to meet someone at a local coffee shop when it seems appropriate. But still, blessings and such are within the context of the Church - you can't have one without the other.

Fr David Moser

[Mary]

That would seem to me to be the kind of thing that a priest would expect to hear. Just be aware that the next question would be a request for name, phone number, address etc. or possibly a suggestion that the other person contact him directly or through the parish.

.....But still, blessings and such are within the context of the Church - you can't have one without the other.

Fr David Moser

Thank you, Fr David. I think we're pretty much on the same page about blessings being a part of the context of the Church. But I wasn't sure, from the little bit of info on the thread, if it was possible to help the woman more, because the parts that stuck out at me was that the priest was not willing to bless the house of such a person, and there were no more details. If the priest had talked with her, or met with her, and then decided he couldn't bless her house because she wasn't willing to come to church or whatever other reason, then it makes a lot of sense to me, and I'd say that everything was done for her, that could be done.

Also, if I plan to make calls on someone's behalf, I'd tell them so, and say that I'm willing to make calls for them, but I would need their phone number, address, etc, to give to the priest. If they can't share that much info with me after I've said I'd call for them, then the only other option is to tell them to call themselves. If they trust me enough to give me the contact info, and if the priest wishes them to call him, I'd call back and tell them that I've contacted the priest for them, and that he's expecting their call.

No one has ever asked me for help, so all this is only speculation. I suppose things could get fuzzy when you're in the middle of a situation.

Thank you, for your reply, Father.

in Christ,
Mary.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Herman,

The way I read things, the woman claims she has evil spirits in her home and was seeking help. She contacted Theodora, God bless Theodora by providing her information on how to contact a Priest. Theodora conveyed to us that her current Priest wouldn't do a house blessing and other Priests that she knows in her area would likely have the same opinion.


When I mentioned the situation to my priest, he indicated he would not do a house blessing under such circumstances for someone who is pretty clearly not a believer. Other local priests I know would likely have the same opinion, from what I've heard them say about non-practicing Orthodox who come to them for baptisms, weddings, funerals, and the like. One even referred to doing blessings or sacraments for those who are non-believers as "throwing pearls before swine." My priest commented in a recent sermon about those who come to the Church just to get something out of it (a blessing, sacrament), not to worship.

From a distance you have suggested that the woman is looking for magic, etc. however, not all can agree with these assessments put forth. It seems that it requires some faith to even ask for a Orthodox Priest, why else would one make such calls?

According to Theodora the woman said she wanted peace in her home" after living in it for seven years. In other words deliverance from evil as she perceives it. It seems to me, the woman by approaching Theodora and seeking an Orthodox Priest recognizes that relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Prince of peace. The extensions of life lines is good, the attached hurling of invectives because of the conclusion of the woman's un-believing disposition is something that the Church teaches all of us to keep at bay. In my life and all of our lives, Christ forgave and forgives, even at times of thoughts that are not faithful. We know from Holy writ that there are times when people had been unbelieving or of little faith. Yet even at such times, even when people had been in a state of unbelieving, Christ actually approached them even those with leprosy. We can even bring to mind the encounter with Saint Thomas as he struggled with belief in the resurrection of Christ, a rather important part of our faith. "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing." In that encounter Saint Thomas ended up saying, My Lord and my God.

As we know, the ultimate extension of love is by the will of God, the incarnation of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He desires not the death of sinners but rather that all are saved. But to answer your question Herman, complete mercy and deliverance are fully vested in Christ. In the history of the Church others have had little faith and had been delivered from great perils to the glory of God. Anyway Herman, what I was trying to say is mercifulness is good, and the Good Shepherd speaking in the parable of the Good Samaritan presents for us what we must go and do likewise, that is what my comments had to do with. There had been some extreme measures of mercy indicated therein, "And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.."


Dear Father,

It is difficult for me to understand some of your comments for it seems to me that if a blessing is deemed "useless" by the one who blesses or "possibly even damaging to the eternal salvation of the persons involved." because of the spiritual state of the recipient then we wouldn't have prayers for those that suffer in such situations by the Church. The woman must think it would be somewhat useful why else would she ask for a blessing of her home and family? It seems to me the patristic testimony is extensive relative to believers and non-believers that sought deliverance, non-believers had been known to actually became believers through the power of the living God and the works of his disciples. Even the prayers of the Church for deliverance typically said by the Priests recognize "every other malady" especially in reference to the things this woman has mentioned, "restless spirits, odd noises, husband seeing a black cloud over her, dog barking at nothing in middle of night,". The Apostolike Diakonia addresses such things.

People that had such problems had not been seen as dogs, and the Church did not convey "we try not to bless people who willfully disdain the faith." as has been conveyed in this thread. The request for the application of prayers by a Priest or others for deliverance had not been seen as "throwing pearls before swine" that is the clear testimony of the Orthodox Church. Nay, the Saints blessed them, asked God to bless them and save them, for he is good and loves mankind.
Such ones had been seen as victims and redeemable by Christ, through His Church and the actions of others therein. There are prayers from Saint Basil and Saint John Chrysostom that convey such things.

As you know Orthodox Christians often pray, cleanse us from every impurity, create a clean heart in me and renew a right spirit within me, so when hear this woman who has difficultly in even approaching a Priest directly for help in her situation it seems good to us as others have mentioned to include her in the us of the prayers even if she can't pray herself. O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth Who art everywhere and fillest all Things. Treasury of blessings, and Giver of life. Come and abide in us, and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls, O Good One.

The good news is even if it is determined in these days that the home of the family should not be blessed by the Priests (that is their call) because of her non-believing status or other reasoning's the Church continues to pray for her and her family so it seems to us that the Church is a blessing for many.

Forgive me Father , but I simply I don't understand. If our prayers are not seen as useless how is it possible for a blessing of a Priest to be "useless" or "even damaging to the eternal salvation of the persons involved."? If that is so, there would be the withholding of blessings for man. But God blesses man, at least that is what I have been taught, We can read, "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

We are taught to pray, even for the deliverance of evil. I always thought the blessings of the Priest are a salvific movement. If the blessing of God are seen as salvific, how can the blessings given by a Priest be damaging to the eternal salvation of the persons involved? I don't understand because I think as such, a blessing by God and his Priests can't possibly be damaging to the eternal salvation of the persons involved because God is love and his love is steadfast. He desireth not the death of sinners, hence he bestows blessings on his creatures and especially mankind precisely because the word became flesh and dwelt among us. We can bring to mind, Lo, I am with you even to the end of time. When the Priest blesses us does not he convey a characteristic of Christ being with you (us) until the end of time. How can that be damaging to any human being?

What you have mentioned Father doesn't make sense to me, maybe I'll be able to understand some other time or maybe it is not given me to understand what you mean. It does seem to me though that man can not turn a blessing of God into something that it is not. He can turn himself away or react to it wrongly but the blessing remains upon him if it is bestowed, so that the man might be healed. That's how I see it.

I ask all to forgive me if my thinking is wrong in all of this, it's not the first time I have questioned my thinking on things and I'm sure it won't be the last.

It remains my hope and prayer and I'm sure for all the participants in this thread that things work out and deliverance from bondage is facilitated for this woman and her family, as we can bring to mind to the Glory of God in the highest, peace on earth and goodwill towards mankind.

Have a blessed Nativity.


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Mary]

Dear Father,

It is difficult for me to understand some of your comments for it seems to me that if a blessing is deemed "useless" by the one who blesses or "possibly even damaging to the eternal salvation of the persons involved." because of the spiritual state of the recipient then we wouldn't have prayers for those that suffer in such situations by the Church. The woman must think it would be somewhat useful why else would she ask for a blessing of her home and family?
It remains my hope and prayer and I'm sure for all the participants in this thread that things work out and deliverance from bondage is facilitated for this woman and her family, as we can bring to mind to the Glory of God in the highest, peace on earth and goodwill towards mankind.

Have a blessed Nativity.


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Dear Matthew,

There are a few cases in which I can think of a house blessing being, not only useless, but also harmful. For example, there are people who engage in demonic activities, like ouija boards and other such things. Say, a priest visits this woman, and is willing to do a house blessing, but finds out such things are going on in her home. He tells her, she has to stop doing these things, because she invites the spirits into her home that way, that a house blessing wouldn't counter all the demonic activities that go on in the home. The woman refuses. So then, if the priest blesses the house anyway, it is not only useless, but also harmful to the woman and her family. Perhaps even to the priest.

I know that's an extreme case. I've never met any mediums or those who go to mediums, but I do know that there are many of these people around. Unless they are willing to come under the protection of the church, is it not dangerous to let them think that a house blessing will be good for them? Getting a house blessing, might make them think that whatever they do inside that house is now ok. And it will lead them further into the mess they've created for themselves.

Same with us. We get ready for a house blessing once a year. But after the blessing is done, if we go back to turning our homes into a house of thieves and a den of robbers, what good does the blessing do us? It is as if we've asked God to curse us instead!

in Christ,
Mary.

[Father David Moser]

it seems to me that if a blessing is deemed "useless" by the one who blesses or "possibly even damaging to the eternal salvation of the persons involved." because of the spiritual state of the recipient

And here I think that you put words into my mouth. I do not think that I said anything about the "spiritual state of the recipient" only that a house blessing might not be appropriate. I did say that some spiritual effort would be necessary on the part of the other person without which the act of blessing the house would be useless or possibly harmful. For further elaboration on this, let us look at the parable of the demon which has been cast out of a man and who wanders the wilderness only to return to the soul from which he was cast. He then re-enters that soul (thus the "useless" part) and finding it clean and swept, invites seven other demons more evil than himself to enter in as well (or worse detrimental).

My point was not about the "useless or worse" but rather about the appropriate action. Perhaps a house blessing is not what is needed; perhaps some other action is what is called for. I couldn't say without being there and speaking with the person. This is not a matter of doctrine or dogma, but rather a pastoral matter that calls for a pastoral approach. We can theorize about this in the abstract all day, but in the end the practice of the Orthodox Church is that such things require the presence, judgment, action and prayer of the priest in order to apply the correct cure to the ill that is presented.

Fr David Moser




then we wouldn't have prayers for those that suffer in such situations by the Church. The woman must think it would be somewhat useful why else would she ask for a blessing of her home and family? It seems to me the patristic testimony is extensive relative to believers and non-believers that sought deliverance, non-believers had been known to actually became believers through the power of the living God and the works of his disciples. Even the prayers of the Church for deliverance typically said by the Priests recognize "every other malady" especially in reference to the things this woman has mentioned, "restless spirits, odd noises, husband seeing a black cloud over her, dog barking at nothing in middle of night,". The Apostolike Diakonia addresses such things.

People that had such problems had not been seen as dogs, and the Church did not convey "we try not to bless people who willfully disdain the faith." as has been conveyed in this thread. The request for the application of prayers by a Priest or others for deliverance had not been seen as "throwing pearls before swine" that is the clear testimony of the Orthodox Church. Nay, the Saints blessed them, asked God to bless them and save them, for he is good and loves mankind.
Such ones had been seen as victims and redeemable by Christ, through His Church and the actions of others therein. There are prayers from Saint Basil and Saint John Chrysostom that convey such things.

As you know Orthodox Christians often pray, cleanse us from every impurity, create a clean heart in me and renew a right spirit within me, so when hear this woman who has difficultly in even approaching a Priest directly for help in her situation it seems good to us as others have mentioned to include her in the us of the prayers even if she can't pray herself. O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth Who art everywhere and fillest all Things. Treasury of blessings, and Giver of life. Come and abide in us, and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls, O Good One.

The good news is even if it is determined in these days that the home of the family should not be blessed by the Priests (that is their call) because of her non-believing status or other reasoning's the Church continues to pray for her and her family so it seems to us that the Church is a blessing for many.

Forgive me Father , but I simply I don't understand. If our prayers are not seen as useless how is it possible for a blessing of a Priest to be "useless" or "even damaging to the eternal salvation of the persons involved."? If that is so, there would be the withholding of blessings for man. But God blesses man, at least that is what I have been taught, We can read, "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

We are taught to pray, even for the deliverance of evil. I always thought the blessings of the Priest are a salvific movement. If the blessing of God are seen as salvific, how can the blessings given by a Priest be damaging to the eternal salvation of the persons involved? I don't understand because I think as such, a blessing by God and his Priests can't possibly be damaging to the eternal salvation of the persons involved because God is love and his love is steadfast. He desireth not the death of sinners, hence he bestows blessings on his creatures and especially mankind precisely because the word became flesh and dwelt among us. We can bring to mind, Lo, I am with you even to the end of time. When the Priest blesses us does not he convey a characteristic of Christ being with you (us) until the end of time. How can that be damaging to any human being?

What you have mentioned Father doesn't make sense to me, maybe I'll be able to understand some other time or maybe it is not given me to understand what you mean. It does seem to me though that man can not turn a blessing of God into something that it is not. He can turn himself away or react to it wrongly but the blessing remains upon him if it is bestowed, so that the man might be healed. That's how I see it.

I ask all to forgive me if my thinking is wrong in all of this, it's not the first time I have questioned my thinking on things and I'm sure it won't be the last.

It remains my hope and prayer and I'm sure for all the participants in this thread that things work out and deliverance from bondage is facilitated for this woman and her family, as we can bring to mind to the Glory of God in the highest, peace on earth and goodwill towards mankind.

Have a blessed Nativity.


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Father,

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I misunderstood and ask your forgiveness.

In the context of this thread there have been all sorts of references to the person being "unbelieving" "looking for magic" etc. In short, the state of the person seemed to me to be emphasized relative to whether she and her family are helped or not. I very much appreciate your comment.


"We can theorize about this in the abstract all day, but in the end the practice of the Orthodox Church is that such things require the presence, judgment, action and prayer of the priest in order to apply the correct cure to the ill that is presented."

I would only add that the Church also has a long tradition of the faithful praying for people and I do not say this to take away anything from what you are saying. This seems especially so when the woman can't bring herself to even call a Priest as Theodora has conveyed and that the local Priests seemed to indicate a blanket no house blessing stance.


When I mentioned the situation to my priest, he indicated he would not do a house blessing under such circumstances for someone who is pretty clearly not a believer. Other local priests I know would likely have the same opinion, from what I've heard them say about non-practicing Orthodox who come to them for baptisms, weddings, funerals, and the like. One even referred to doing blessings or sacraments for those who are non-believers as "throwing pearls before swine." My priest commented in a recent sermon about those who come to the Church just to get something out of it (a blessing, sacrament), not to worship.

It was the blanket type of approach and it's advancement that seemed very strange to me. Thank you for the clarification and corrections, Father David.


Dear Mary,

You have mentioned:


Same with us. We get ready for a house blessing once a year. But after the blessing is done, if we go back to turning our homes into a house of thieves and a den of robbers, what good does the blessing do us? It is as if we've asked God to curse us instead!

Well, these are two very different things, the out right rejection of the grace of a blessing as in the extreme cases you mentioned and going back to turning our homes into a house of thieves and a den of robbers.

Firstly, as members of the Church even ones that turn back somewhat or to great degrees, there are promptings from within should one pursue turning their home into a house of thieves and den of robbers. We have friends in the Church thanks be to God. The living God loves mankind so much that even in and through such going back situations, the grace that was bestowed can actually prompt one to repentance (change or changing of ways) as difficult as that may be. These are the fruits of the Spirit that are the results of the prayers of the Church, we can bring to mind the Parable of the Prodigal Son and the rejoicing aspect of it.

The blessings of the Church are not seen here as any type of curse because we struggle, even in the most serious of struggles. The good the blessings do strengthen us, helping us and leading us to the kingdom of heaven, they are the bestowing of grace, specifically the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through his Church. Even if we fall short the Church continues to bless us, there are prayers for even those that leave the Orthodox Church in the hope that they would return and that joy of the heart is experienced by many. We can bring to mind, if God is for us who can be against us, hence we can see this and indeed experience it within the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that guides the Church, Treasury of blessings, and Giver of life.

It seems to me that a blessing from the Church and the rejection of those blessings is not a cursing, these also are two very different things. The rejection of the blessings of the Church is an accursed way to go. The bestowing of those blessing remain a blessing. If the blessings are accepted they are blessings, if the blessings are rejected they remain blessings that have been rejected. The blessings do not bring about rejection, the demons do and man can when he prefers to go those ways. Hence the importance of attending the Churches services to be guided in the right ways because there is so much grace and love given therein.

Even in extreme cases as you have mentioned or situations of possession and even the surrendering of a persons free will to the demons, or however such things might be actualized, the Church seeing the person as made in the image and likeness of God has many prayers of exorcism that are prayed. When such prayers are required as determined by the Bishops and Priests and the Priests prays them, blesses, it is for deliverance not for turning such actions into cursing.

Whatever the situation is with this woman and her family, I can't see how praying that God blesses them and helps them can be detrimental or something of a cursing.

In this thread we can see that we would all be at a great loss without the blessings of the Priests should all be profoundly grateful for so much that Orthodox Priests do and suffer from us on occasion I might add!

Have a blessed Nativity.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Mary]

Dear Mary,

You have mentioned:



Well, these are two very different things, the out right rejection of the grace of a blessing as in the extreme cases you mentioned and going back to turning our homes into a house of thieves and a den of robbers.

The living God loves mankind so much that even in and through such going back situations, the grace that was bestowed can actually prompt one to repentance (change or changing of ways) as difficult as that may be. These are the fruits of the Spirit that are the results of the prayers of the Church, we can bring to mind the Parable of the Prodigal Son and the rejoicing aspect of it.

I see what you mean. The prodigal son didn't leave as a thief, stealing his inheritance. He went with his Father's blessing, his permission. And even though he squandered away all that he had been given, the fact that the Father had blessed him, was probably like a seed in his heart, and it eventually bore fruit, maybe even helped him repent.

And you're right too, that our homes are never pure and perfect, even though we get them blessed every year. But then, the reason all those blessings bear fruit, isn't it because there is some kind of repentance in us? So then, for a house blessing for a non-orthodox to be fruitful, shouldn't there be some kind of repentance in them too?

For instance, the paralyzed man whom Jesus healed, before he healed his body, he forgave his sins. Why would He do that? He saved the adulteress woman from being stoned, and then told her to go and sin no more. Of course, there's always more forgiveness available every time we need to repent again.

It just seems to me that, it does us no good, if we just want the blessings from church, and dont' want to have anything to do with Christ, or his body the Church. That doesn't mean the church shouldn't pray for such people or for us, when we behave the same way. So there's nothing wrong with praying for this woman.



It seems to me that a blessing from the Church and the rejection of those blessings is not a cursing, these also are two very different things. The rejection of the blessings of the Church is an accursed way to go. The bestowing of those blessing remain a blessing. If the blessings are accepted they are blessings, if the blessings are rejected they remain blessings that have been rejected. The blessings do not bring about rejection, the demons do and man can when he prefers to go those ways. Hence the importance of attending the Churches services to be guided in the right ways because there is so much grace and love given therein.
This makes sense. I suppose a lot would depend on 'how' the person rejects the blessing. But, as Fr David mentioned, Jesus did say, if a person is freed from demons, the demons go looking for another place to stay, and if they come back, they bring many more with them, making the person's condition worse than before. So, with this lady, since her problem is spritual in nature, one has to be more careful. It isn't like she's asking for some holy water or holy oil to be anointed with, for a physical sickness. If she is freed from these demons, with the prayers of exhorcism and whatever else - but then, she's is unwilling to fill her clean house with the presence of Christ, how can she be safe from even worse things?

I did remember something last night. My uncle, in India, when he moved to a new house, had some kind of problems. He's not a very pious person. Normally, whenever someone buys or builds a new house, they have a house blessing. (Anglicans). But he never did. I don't remember what kind of problems he had, but they weren't anything dramatic, mostly just a lack of peace. He went to the priest in the town and arranged for a houseblessing. In the course of the prayers being done, not sure exactly what all they did... but they discovered, buried in several places in the yard, talismans and amulets of sorts, from the previous owners. I'm guessing they were from a hindu temple, and meant to ward of evil spirits. Anyway, once those things were gotten rid of, my uncle's problems disappeared.

So, sometimes, the cause of our spiritual problems, could be our neighbors or the previous owners! I guess that doesn't simplify matters.

Well... that's as far as my mind can go.

in Christ,
Mary.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Mary,


I see what you mean. The prodigal son didn't leave as a thief, stealing his inheritance. He went with his Father's blessing, his permission. And even though he squandered away all that he had been given, the fact that the Father had blessed him, was probably like a seed in his heart, and it eventually bore fruit, maybe even helped him repent.

I didn't mean it that way exactly. I think it can also be seen as when we are Baptized and Chrismated we are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, having put on Christ, hence my reference to promptings. Things can be squandered easily when we don't realize how very important they are, but when we come to our good senses the Father rejoices, so do the Angels and Saints in heaven.


So, sometimes, the cause of our spiritual problems, could be our neighbors or the previous owners! I guess that doesn't simplify matters.

Christ and his Church are so much stronger than such things, you and all Orthodox believers are sealed, Christ has conquered out of love for mankind.

We can go further, thanks be to God you are in the Church you have a Priest and with such blessings you can rejoice therein with many. Think of all the good that happens therein, the worship of God, forgiveness of sins, the Eucharist, and there we are, even with our shortcomings. There is so much grace therein, that simplifies matters.


If she is freed from these demons, with the prayers of exhorcism and whatever else - but then, she's is unwilling to fill her clean house with the presence of Christ, how can she be safe from even worse things?


Some commentators on the parable that Father David presented speak of it a bit differently, but keeping in mind his point was not about the "useless or worse" but rather about the appropriate action I think I understand what he is saying. The hope would be in such a situation that she would be freed from the cruelty of the demons and having been blessed, grace being applied etc. would want to fill her clean house with the presence of Christ, especially after what she is said to be experiencing her soul would know better. I do find your question to be a good question for the ecumenical movement participants. We have pastoral ecumenical movement guidance these days. These other non-Christian faiths or whatever way not asking for help or even being freed from the demons working together for peace. In short repentance and accepting Christ and his Church, the Orthodox Church is most important. We say what we believe in the Creed true God of true God and hope and pray that many will join us and that she and many others will " believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of light."

I think that is why this is entirely a pastoral matter and that Father David is completely correct in mentioning:


My point was not about the "useless or worse" but rather about the appropriate action. Perhaps a house blessing is not what is needed; perhaps some other action is what is called for. I couldn't say without being there and speaking with the person.

We can theorize about this in the abstract all day, but in the end the practice of the Orthodox Church is that such things require the presence, judgment, action and prayer of the priest in order to apply the correct cure to the ill that is presented.


I'm not too sure that it is not a matter of doctrine or dogma since those relationships can been seen as pastoral as well by some in some ways, but I'm sure it is a pastoral matter, hence I'm reluctant to say anymore.

I have to get back to work here and find it best to leave this thread knowing it really is a pastoral matter.

I hope all have a most blessed Nativity.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin