Length of services

[Jane Lev Ron]

Dear Friends,

I am new to Monachos and have been an Orthodox Christian since Dec 17/30, 2006, thanks be to God, when I was baptized in the Sea of Galilee.

I live on a kibbutz on the coast of Israel and the nearest church is about an hour away in every direction. I attend St. Nicholas Church in Migdal HaEmek (check out the website for a picture and history) http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/MigdalHaemek.html

I speak English and Hebrew so the Divine Liturgy and all other Feasts, Vigils, etc. are in a language I don't understand, no matter which church I attend. I follow the Liturgy in my prayer book and can identify certain Church Slavonic phrases, but I'm lost during the Feasts, vigils, etc.

We follow the Church (Julian) Calendar in Israel and as we approach the Feast of the Nativity I would like to know (specifically) how I can more easily follow the all-night vigils and Feasts and (generally) why they are so long.

I would like to take this opportunity to wish you all a blessed and peaceful Nativity!

Ioanna

[Herman Blaydoe]

I think one of the reasons is to create a sense of timelessness. Eternity is not a long time, it is outside of time and the services are our attempt to step outside of time. Also, when you visit someone you love very much, don't you want to prolong the visit rather than cut it short? Do you say to the one you love the most: "OK 45 minutes is long enough, my dear, I have more important things to do now, bye!"

I have also heard from some whose opinions I respect highly, that is it OK for Orthodox to "pop in" and "pop out". The length of the services simply make the time for going to Church "wider" and more "flexible" since you have 6 hours to find some time that fits into your schedule, rather than a small 45 minute window. You go for as long as you want, or as little as you want. But remember that the shorter period you stay, the less of a blessing you receive.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain

Herman the Pooh

[Mary]

We follow the Church (Julian) Calendar in Israel and as we approach the Feast of the Nativity I would like to know (specifically) how I can more easily follow the all-night vigils and Feasts and (generally) why they are so long.

They have to be long! I've been to services that were shortened slightly and after attending the same service in its entirety, it's hard to feel satisfied after a short one. It takes a while for the body and the mind to unwind and enter into the prayers and readings. And once you're in it, you don't want to come out. But the services always end. And that makes me sad. But there is a beautiful thing at the end of a service too. The Silence. It is deep, and it is full of life, and you want to linger and soak it in. Any words at that point, even prayers, are intrusive. So that's why the services have to end. There comes a time, when all that needs to be said is said. Oh, but the Silence is most delicious. I have found that I cannot soak it in or enjoy it as much, if I'm thinking or otherwise restless in my heart. It's also hard to be in it, if people talk to each other as they leave the church. It's not yet time to talk when the service ends! So, in real, the service is actually longer than it is in the books. There's not time frame for the Silence part of it.

[Owen Jones]

Boy, there's no silence at the end of our liturgy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jane Lev Ron]

I have also heard from some whose opinions I respect highly, that is it OK for Orthodox to "pop in" and "pop out". The length of the services simply make the time for going to Church "wider" and more "flexible" since you have 6 hours to find some time that fits into your schedule, rather than a small 45 minute window. You go for as long as you want, or as little as you want. But remember that the shorter period you stay, the less of a blessing you receive.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain

Herman the Pooh

You are so right. I try to arrive early enough to gather my thoughts, prepare myself for confession and find my place. However, many float in and out all the time. It doesn't bother me but I think that they may be missing out. Sometimes I wonder if they would wander around, arrive late or leave early if they were meeting a mortal head of state or monarch.

Regarding the silence, how nice that must be! That is definitely not the case at St. Nicholas.

[Brian Patrick Mitchell]

Regarding the silence, how nice that must be! That is definitely not the case at St. Nicholas.

It is very nice, but it's not the case at most American churches I've visited. We Americans are so gabby.

As for the length, it is true that the more involved you are, the quicker time passes and the easier it is to bear. Nobody complains about being on their feet for three hours at a cocktail party.

Ioanna, You have a special cross to bear because of the language difference. Keep with it. The rewards will come, and we'll be praying for you.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

[Jane Lev Ron]

As for the length, it is true that the more involved you are, the quicker time passes and the easier it is to bear. Nobody complains about being on their feet for three hours at a cocktail party.

Ioanna, You have a special cross to bear because of the language difference. Keep with it. The rewards will come, and we'll be praying for you.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

Time is not a problem if I have a clue as to what is going on. Following the service silently without knowing where everyone else is has a tendence to result in me being in my own world and not part of the congregation. However, I definitely will keep with it.

Your prayers mean a great deal. Thank you and God bless!

[Michael Astley]

Dear Ioanna,

I read your post and I realise how privileged I have been to have bilingual worship in my parish. This way, I hav learnt the services in my own language and can understand them more fully, while at the same time I have become familiar with many of the hymns, responses, and characteristics of Slavonic, so that when I go to a Slavonic-only church, I know exactly what is going on and can actively join in some of the sung parts in addition to the physical participation. The latter is a great blessing and I kinow from conversation that some people in English-only parishes feel lost sometimes when they go to other churches because they have no exposure to the other languages.

I wonder, might it be possible for you to acquire a bi-lingual prayer book for the Liturgy? I have seen them in Greek-English and Ukrainian-English, and I imagine that other language combinations exist. They have one language on the one side and an English translation on the facing page. This should help you to follow along and perhaps you can quietly pray the portions in English within your heart while they are being sung by those around you. Eventually, you will come to know some of the Greek/Arabic and what it corresponds to in English, and perhaps you can try joining in.

Also, rememeber that words are just a tiny part of what goes on in the Liturgy. If you can find one of these books which also includes rubrics for the choir, clergy, and servitors, then you will be able to more fully understand what is happening based on the ceremonial that you see unfolding. If you know what the Liturgy is supposed to look like as well as sound like, then it becomes easier to follow. I think this is a good idea for all Orthodox people, actually, and not just those who struggle with a language barrier. It is meet and right that we should have a fuller understanding of the worship in which we participate.

I hope that some of this helps.

In Christ,
Michael

[Ilaria]

I realize now that, though I perfectly understand each word, my mind is away 80% during services ... while others, do not understand the language but ARE THERE...on the other hand,we have here, in Romania, particularly in Bucharest, so many churches , and hardly manage to be there; and others need an hour to reach a church...this is so sad for us,but this is so wonderful for you, Ioanna! May God keep you in His Hands in this wonderful spiritual struggle!
During long services you may bring all your dear ones with you there - how? - by saying "Lord Jesus Christ have mercy upon X, Y" - and, patiently, with small paces, you'll just know, with your heart, where is the service and what are they saying ...
I wish you also peace and joy

[Jane Lev Ron]

Dear Michael,

Thank you for the suggestions. Can you or someone recommend such a book with rubrics?

In Christ,
Ioanna

[Olga]

Welcopme, Jane, to the forum.

Orthodox vigils are quite complicated to compile, though, with practice and a comprehensive liturgical library, it can be done, even if one is not a choirmaster/mistress or clergy. Strangely enough, the most straightforward vigils to compile are those of the major feasts, the most complicated ones are those which fall in Great Lent. I found that once I made the effort to become familiar with the structure of a vigil, then the length of time the service took became far less of a "problem". I could "pace" myself through a two and a half hour vigil (or even the four-hour Paschal services) more easily.

Over the years, I have, with some effort, compiled and printed bilingual service booklets in Slavonic and English for most of the major feasts, as well as a bilingual Divine Liturgy booklet, and an English-only priest's handbook containing full rubrics and the priestly prayers. I'm happy to help if you are interested.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Olga wrote:



Over the years, I have, with some effort, compiled and printed bilingual service booklets in Slavonic and English for most of the major feasts, as well as a bilingual Divine Liturgy booklet, and an English-only priest's handbook containing full rubrics and the priestly prayers. I'm happy to help if you are interested

Is there a way in which these could be put online for us to have access to?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Olga]

The booklets are in Word format, with the pages in A6 size, and formatted to suit the printers I use, so I'm not sure how they'll show up online. Suggestions?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The booklets are in Word format, with the pages in A6 size, and formatted to suit the printers I use, so I'm not sure how they'll show up online. Suggestions?

Mike Stickles- where are you? :)

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Herman Blaydoe]

I recommend saving in a .pdf format which can be readily resized without losing formatting (albeit, perhaps, with some sacrifice in legibiliity if the print ends up too small). If you do not have a Macintosh (which prints directly into .pdf format) or a program that converts from Word to .pdf like Adobe Acrobat Pro (rather expensive) there are online sites that can convert the file for free. Google "online pdf converter".

Herman the pdf Pooh

[M.C. Steenberg]

Such booklets would very much be the sort of thing we would consider publishing on the Monachos.net main website. Olga, do please be in touch with me about these, so we can make them more widely available on-line.

INXC, dcn Matthew

[Jane Lev Ron]

Thank you so much, Olga, and you are right. After becoming completely familr with the structure of the Divine Litrugy in Slavonic, it has become easier and more comfortable.

As you say, the more complicated the service, the easier it is for me to get totally lost.

The booklets you have made sound like they would be perfect.

Olga & Fr. Matthew, please keep us posted as to how to access them.

In Christ,

Ioanna

[Richard A. Downing]

This reminds me of when I visited an Egyptian Coptic Cathedral (Stevenage, England) recently. It was only when I spoke briefly to HG +Angelos afterwards that I realised that it was mostly in English. (Red face)
As a convert to Orthodoxy, finding texts that can be studied is a difficulty, especially with all the minor differences in even things like the Trisagion.
Love,
Richard.

[Michael Stickles]

Mike Stickles- where are you? :)

Way behind on catching up with unread threads :-)


I recommend saving in a .pdf format which can be readily resized without losing formatting (albeit, perhaps, with some sacrifice in legibiliity if the print ends up too small). If you do not have a Macintosh (which prints directly into .pdf format) or a program that converts from Word to .pdf like Adobe Acrobat Pro (rather expensive) there are online sites that can convert the file for free.

I do have one of those programs, and could work on converting documents.

In Christ,
Michael

[Herman Blaydoe]

Way behind on catching up with unread threads :-)

I do have one of those programs, and could work on converting documents.

In Christ,
Michael

Doh! Of course! I DO have a Mac and can certainly also help with reformatting or converting or whatever!!!

[Panayota K.]

It is hard enough -in the beginning at least- to bare the lenght of services in someone's own language, let alone when he/she can't understand them. Personally I was tortured with boredom and the strong urge to go late (really late!) for many years. I guess God showed mercy on me and He permitted me to start enjoying them. If this happened to sb like me then I'm sure He will soon give you that present, Jane! Just be patient and persistent.

In Christ
Panayota