Does Seventh Ecumenical Council, canon 64 prohibit Orthodox lay blogging?

[Jacob]

I am not (yet) Orthodox but have been discussing some of the Church Fathers with Protestant friends (they trying to give me best reasons for not converting). Well, in the course of the discussion this came up:


That a layman must not publicly make a speech or teach, thus investing himself with the dignity of a teacher, but, instead, must submit to the ordinance handed down by the Lord, and to open his ear wide to them who have received the grace of teaching ability, and to be taught by them the divine facts thoroughly.

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/__P3S.HTM

How is this canon to be interpreted and applied today?

[Herman Blaydoe]

It is to be interpreted and applied as the bishop best determines. That is why they get to wear the funny hats.

[Eric Peterson]

What Herman said.

With regard to blogging, it would depend on what was being blogged, really. Most Orthodox blogs I have read that actually provide teaching are quoting from elsewhere or discussing it in some way. Discernment is needed in the case of teaching, as in all things. Obviously, someone who is inattentive to his teachers has no business teaching. But if one has learned something useful, it appears normal to pass this on, where it is needed, if this can be done in a way that does not distort or misapply the teaching one has heard. Discernment, again, is needed here as well. An elder may say something to one person, but that does not mean that it applies to all--I say this more about things concerning personal guidance. It is a different thing with the teaching of the Church.

With regard to lay theologians, there are many, traditionally, in the Church, from all centuries. But caveats must be applied here. An Orthodox theologian is not just someone who has studied Orthodoxy, but is primarily a practitioner. "A theologian is one who prays." In America, at least, however, we have a certain influx of people who are self-appointed theologians. They may even have degrees in theology. Some have written books. But an appellation, self-applied or conferred by an institution, does not a real theologian make. Here again, one needs discernment to distinguish which so-called theologians can be trusted, and which cannot.

But, above all, one should have a blessing for everything from a priest or bishop, for the sake of good order and accountability.

[Paul Cowan]

I am not (yet) Orthodox but have been discussing some of the Church Fathers with Protestant friends (they trying to give me best reasons for not converting). Well, in the course of the discussion this came up:

That a layman must not publicly make a speech or teach, thus investing himself with the dignity of a teacher, but, instead, must submit to the ordinance handed down by the Lord, and to open his ear wide to them who have received the grace of teaching ability, and to be taught by them the divine facts thoroughly.

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/__P3S.HTM

How is this canon to be interpreted and applied today?

Since ALL protestants fall outside the church, they are ALL lay persons and have no business teaching or being teached from the same. So they fall under the weight of their own argument. And of course what Eric said in his last paragraph.

Paul

[Mary]

I don't blog, but I do answer a lot of questions on this forum as if I know what I'm talking about. So far, none of the fathers have made any indication that I've overstepped my boundaries.

[Michael Astley]

Since ALL protestants fall outside the church, they are ALL lay persons and have no business teaching or being teached from the same. So they fall under the weight of their own argument.

As I understand it, Paul, the canons are for the ordering of the life of the Church. With the exceptions of those which deal with matters of those within the Church are to relate to those without it, they are not intended to deal with what happens or does not happen outside the Church.

Even if that were not the case, I'm still not sure I could agree that Jacob's Protestant friends fall under the weight of their own argument. The canon in question applies to lay persons. Lay persons are those who, not being among the clergy, have nonetheless been grafted into the Church of Christ through Baptism. If Protestants are outside the Church then they are not lay persons, (unless we start to say that we acknowledge baptism as existing outside the Church, but then if baptism exists outside the Church then what of those who are so baptised? Are they baptised into the Church? If so, then we must recognise that the bodies into which they are baptised are one with the Church. Or are they outside the Church? If so, then their Baptism is of no effect and is no Baptism at all).

In Christ,
Michael

[Paul Cowan]

I understand what you are saying about those outside the church. I was focusing in on his PC friends are using church canons to sway him from Orthodoxy. If being outside the church is what they are, they have no business using the canons inside the church to make their argument. If they insist they are In the church, then that opens up a whole new discussion between he and they which could damage their relationship. My point was to use their argument against them and leave aside their "relative" position to the true church. Even IF they were "in" the church, then this canon would equally apply to them. Sometimes it easier to "shoot down" an argument from a position of equal footing, then to demonize one position from the outset.

Paul

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I am not (yet) Orthodox but have been discussing some of the Church Fathers with Protestant friends (they trying to give me best reasons for not converting). Well, in the course of the discussion this came up:


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/__P3S.HTM

How is this canon to be interpreted and applied today?

This is not from the 7th Ec Co. Therefore this whole discussion is out of bounds and none of you are allowed to say or think anything anymore.

Fr Raphael

[M.C. Steenberg]

A lovely topic, Jacob! Thank you for initiating this discussion.

I heartily endorse what others have already written: namely, that the canons order the life of the Church and her faithful, and do not attempt to speak to each and every situation in the whole of the world - particularly that outside the Church herself.

However, the canons do order our lives as Christian persons, and through the pastoral guidance of the bishop are the rules by which we conform our lives to the model given us in the Church: Christ Himself.

So the canon that you have quoted directly relates to roles within the Church; and yet it also spells out a certain 'basic rule': namely, that we should know our station when it comes to speaking in voices of authority. God calls and ordains certain ones to certain roles in this regard; if we attempt to abrogate that order, we go against the 'rule' by which our lives are rightly ordered unto Christ.

This does not mean to order every word we do or do not say outside the context of the Church herself; yet we cannot wholly divorce the 'within' and 'without' in this regard. Let us take the concrete example you raised, of a 'web log': how is it being used by a lay person? Is it to express thoughts? Ideas? Questions? Ruminations? Studies? Or is it being used to undermine the right and proper authority of Church order, by speaking 'outside' what is improper to be spoken 'inside'? If the former, it seems a good and holy thing - if done with a blessing. If the latter, then the canon would seem to apply, and suggest that this is an inappropriate activity.

Here we see, I think, the manner in which the canons speak to the specific ordering of Church life, but also direct and guide our steps in the whole of our day to day lives.

On-line discussions -- whether in 'blogs' or discussion fora like this -- can have a wholly good and valid place within the life of the Christian; but they can also be destructive and damaging. Much (all) depends on our honesty, humility, and intent.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

(Who notes that the ability to have a blog on Monachos.net has recently been added!)

[Mary]

This is not from the 7th Ec Co. Therefore this whole discussion is out of bounds and none of you are allowed to say or think anything anymore.

Fr Raphael

I guess I overstepped my boundaries! =)

[M.C. Steenberg]

I guess I overstepped my boundaries! =)

How dare you try to define your boundaries! Only bishops may do that!

;)

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Mary]

How dare you try to define your boundaries! Only bishops may do that!

;)

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Oh no! I've been busted! Just when I was going to inaugurate that new blogging area on Monachos, too!!!

[Father David Moser]

As has been already said, this seems to be a canon about Church order. Let us recall that the only person in the Church who is granted the charism/grace to teach is the bishop. All instruction in the Church must go through the local rulilng bishop. That is why many Orthodox books are printed "with the blessing of Bishop N" or something similar. The bishop is not the only one who teaches, but he is the one who blesses those who do teach. All things must be done decently and in order.

On the other hand these canons refer to those who teach in the Church - there is nothing that prohibits a Christian from expressing an opinion about various theological, dogmatic, practical or simply mundane matters. A blog is just that - a personal journal that is kept online for everyone to read. It is not the teaching of the Church or any official voice of the Church. There is nothing in this canon that would even begin to address the personal expression of a personal opinion.

Fr David Moser

[D. W. Dickens]

I have been asked to teach in Church and I am uncomfortable with it (I am barred from ordination because I was remarried). I did not know of this canon. Should I bring this up to those who would encourage me to teach?

[Owen]

No. If your pastor trusts you, that's enough.

[Father David Moser]

No. If your pastor trusts you, that's enough.

agreed

Fr David Moser

[Ben Johnson]

This is not from the 7th Ec Co. Therefore this whole discussion is out of bounds and none of you are allowed to say or think anything anymore.

Fr RaphaelI thought so. http://community.statesmanjournal.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_cool.gif

[Andreas Moran]

Bishop Eirenaios used to say, 'the glass cannot overflow until it is full'.

[Jacob]

Thank you friends. Another reason I asked this because I come from a Reformed and philosophical background, and partly came to learning about Orthodoxy via some Orthodox blogs by Orthodoxy philosophy profs and students (which dealt with the Fathers and specifically with many Calvinist claims).

I was just making sure that the means I came to learn about Orthodoxy were not illegitimate on Orthodoxy's own terms.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

By the way- I was only half joking yesterday. This canon really is NOT from the 7th Ec Co. It is actually from Quini-sext.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Eric Peterson]

Oh no! Not Trullo!

[Mary]

By the way- I was only half joking yesterday. This canon really is NOT from the 7th Ec Co. It is actually from Quini-sext.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

I knew you were half joking. But I thought the joke part was about the canon. I mean, how could anyone possibly know exactly where a random sentence doesn't come from, and where it does come from? Such knowledge is too unfathomable for me.

Ok. Now that I've flattered you, can I say and think whatever I want, whenever I want?

in Christ,
Mary.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Mary wrote:



Ok. Now that I've flattered you, can I say and think whatever I want, whenever I want?


Well, just this once!

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[D. W. Dickens]

No. If your pastor trusts you, that's enough.

So if I don't trust myself, nor want the responsibility... just buck up and do it?

I have actually considered beginning to deliberately mistake things or speak unclearly to avoid being put in the position to teach others. I've only been Orthodox a year. I don't know what I'm talking about (except when I'm talking about all my formerly egomanaical heresies).

[Mary]

So if I don't trust myself, nor want the responsibility... just buck up and do it?

I have actually considered beginning to deliberately mistake things or speak unclearly to avoid being put in the position to teach others. I've only been Orthodox a year. I don't know what I'm talking about (except when I'm talking about all my formerly egomanaical heresies).

I don't think it's good to deliberately be unclear. Misunderstandings abound even when people are trying to be as clear as possible. You could ask that the priest or another mature orthodox who has taught before, be present when you do your teaching, to make sure that what you're saying is in line with the Church's teachings.

In my own learning, I've seen that sometimes a person's way of expressing the same truth, reaches a spot in my heart that others couldn't reach. So, if your priest thinks your experience as a former egomaniac is useful, then it is your responsibility to make sure it is put to good use. It is one of the many 'talents' that God has given you, to invest. Don't bury it, if the priest doesn't think it should be buried.

In Christ,
Mary

[Kusanagi]

Well most blogs i have read have teachings of the Holy Fathers and Mothers, translated text of lives or teachings of saints or Holy People not found in English yet or the English text is out of print.
Most have their opinion on some particular matter affecting the world today, but correct if i am wrong isnt there some sort of policy when a person that signs up to a blog that the opinion belongs to the author and not some orgnaisation, group affliates etc?

[Richard A. Downing]

So if I don't trust myself, nor want the responsibility... just buck up and do it?

I have actually considered beginning to deliberately mistake things or speak unclearly to avoid being put in the position to teach others. I've only been Orthodox a year. I don't know what I'm talking about (except when I'm talking about all my formerly egomanaical heresies).

I am in a different position, but related. I'm about to be formally accepted as a catechumen by the Orthodox church, and I have written about my journey from Roman Catholic to Proselytising Atheism (the Humanist sect that Prof. Dawkins now thinks he's Patriarch of), through Anglicanism and then Patristics to my present position. I am still writing for the Anglican diocese's newspaper (at their request). My Spiritual Father knows about this, and doesn't discourage me - although I am now 'running it past' him before submission. My motive in continuing is to introduce my friends to the teaching of the Fathers, in a non-threatening way, explained in the words an Anglican can understand.

My point is that a convert is quite likely to be better versed in Orthodoxy than someone brought up in it. The experience of the Holy Spirit infusing one's existence is recent and clear to the mind, and the result of clear personal choice. Your instruction and catechesis is fresh in the mind. You will be very certain to check your facts before your teach them. In a small parish/community you might well be the safest teacher Father has.

InXC, Richard.

[Peter S.]

(As this does not relate directly to the canon of the 7th Ec Co (?), (or blog-issue here) I dare to speak.)

Because:



My point is that a convert is quite likely to be better versed in Orthodoxy than someone brought up in it. The experience of the Holy Spirit infusing one's existence is recent and clear to the mind, and the result of clear personal choice. Your instruction and catechesis is fresh in the mind. You will be very certain to check your facts before your teach them. In a small parish/community you might well be the safest teacher Father has.

InXC, Richard.

Related to what you say Richard D. it is true that people that has been baptized Orthodox as a child runs the risk of being "used" to Orthodoxy and being blasé. But if you were baptized Orthodox as a child you may have lived and experienced life as an Orthodox and is better off maybe to understand Orthodoxy, because you bring your whole life and errors in your life with you, until you are senile. ; ) No matter if you are Orthodox or not...

So it depends on the person who is best to teach. It is not either or. And it depends on the day. And hour. If you have got a blessing it is more likely that God will help you in your teaching.

In Christ,
Peter

[Richard A. Downing]

So it depends on the person who is best to teach. It is not either or. And it depends on the day. And hour. If you have got a blessing it is more likely that God will help you in your teaching.


Peter, you are, of course right, and, forgive me, I should not be writing about the skills and talents of others anyway. Teachers are sent by God, and come with His blessing. Often, I have found, the best teaching comes not from those who are the most learned, but the most blessed.
InXC, Richard.