"Does God cause earthquakes?" [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

Evan

15-01-2010, 07:27 PM

Ilaria

15-01-2010, 08:09 PM

Luke 13
2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Evan

15-01-2010, 08:54 PM

Ilaria,

Thank you for the Scripture. I've tried to steer clear of implying that anybody in particular "deserves" earthly suffering.

That said, such events as the destruction of Jerusalem are plainly upheld by the Fathers as expressions of divine wrath, intended to chastise and correct (I know that's a loaded term, but I don't know how else to describe it). Those of us in the states are likely aware that statements to this effect have been made regarding the situation in Haiti, and that many view them as scandalous because they do imply that such suffering is "deserved."

Is this chastisement-correction approach to be rejected utterly? Was it uniquely tailored to the Jews and the need to humble them in preparation for the coming of the Word in the flesh?

In Christ,
Evan

Herman Blaydoe

15-01-2010, 09:45 PM

The Commemoration of the Great Earthquake of Constantinople
In the year 740, during the reign of Emperor Leo the Isaurian, there was a terrifying and prolonged earthquake in Constantinople. The people considered this a punishment from God for their sins, and prayed with great repentance to the Most‐holy Theotokos and St. Demetrius, until God showed mercy and the earthquake ceased. This event is commemorated in the Orthodox Calendar on November 8th.

TROPAR (Tone 8)
O Christ our God, You look upon the earth and it trembles;
Deliver us from the terrible threat of earthquakes;
And through the prayers of the Theotokos,
Send down upon us Your abundant mercy and save us!

KONTAK (Tone 6)
Deliver us from upheavals and from terrible afflictions caused by our sins, O Lord, and spare
Your people whom You have purchased with Your blood, O Master. Do not deliver Your city
to destruction by terrible earthquakes, for we know no other God than You; and to those
who cry out You respond: “I am with you and no one will be against you.”

Evan

15-01-2010, 10:32 PM

Herman,

Maybe I should have described the tenor of the questions differently.

"Did God cause THIS earthquake?"

In Christ,
Evan

Brian Patrick Mitchell

15-01-2010, 10:50 PM

We have no way of knowing. God certainly can cause earthquakes and may have at times, but a better way to understand most "natural disasters" is that they are the unnatural result of a fallen world deprived of its priestly connection to God by man's abandonment of his priestly office. Had man not fallen, his priestly service would keep the natural material world in order.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

Eric Peterson

15-01-2010, 10:55 PM

I think it would be important to ask, if God causes other earthquakes to happen, and not this latest one, then who did? To ascribe causality to Satan would seem to me to be against the teaching of the Fathers and Scripture. Satan does not rule the world or, as the Psalm says, shake the earth about like a garment. God Who made the earth appoints seasons, life, life's end, earthquakes, etc. Unpleasant things happen, and we want to leave God out of the equation. But this makes, I think, a vacuum of causality. We do not believe that anything happens without God. The earthquake happened because God allowed it to happen. WHY the earthquake happened is a completely different matter. We say disaster happens because of our own sins out of repentance and humility. It's another matter to ascribe God's wrath as the reason why disasters happen to other people. It's like anything else in life, like riches and poverty. Why are the rich rich and the poor poor? So that the rich might share what they have with the poor and the poor might thank God and pray for the rich. Why did this earthquake happen? Generically, the same reason why this and other disasters strike, so that people may repent and show compassion, so that they might remember eternal life, and for various other reasons known only to God.

Brian Patrick Mitchell

15-01-2010, 11:21 PM

Let me put it another way: People drown; does that mean that God causes drownings? But if people had faith, they could walk on water and therefore wouldn't drown. Caught in tempest at sea, they could command the wind and the seas to be still, as Christ did. It is therefore our lack of faith that leads to the disorders we unfortunately call "acts of God."

In Christ, Dn. Christ

Andreas Moran

15-01-2010, 11:30 PM

I find it hard to believe that God would cause an earthquake in a place where the condition of the people was already of the utmost wretchedness in the hope of inducing a sense of repentence and compassion in rich westerners who are already indicted by their failure to provide appropriate assistance to such a people before this disaster.

Cyprian (Humphrey)

15-01-2010, 11:34 PM

For a larger context perhaps:

http://www.orthocuban.com/2010/01/father-orthoduck-apologizes-for-pat-robertson/

Eric Peterson

15-01-2010, 11:46 PM

Evan

15-01-2010, 11:51 PM

Cyprian (Humphrey)

15-01-2010, 11:57 PM

Oh, Eric (and others mayhap)! My apologies! I wasn't trying to say that you supported anything that Pat Robertson ever said at all! I apologize if it read like that's what I was trying to say.

I found that link earlier today, and then saw this thread, and thought "what if some of the Orthodox folks were faced with this kind of argument from their acquaintances?" It was just to point out that this "pact with the Devil" nonsense has no basis in reality at all. It was not intended as a commentary on the reflections and insights already given.

Maybe I didn't emphasize the "perhaps" enough!

My apologies for not expressing myself more clearly.

Please forgive me.

Fr Raphael Vereshack

16-01-2010, 12:27 AM

As with our discussion on the existence of a real hell, so here also with catastrophes we are very hesitant to ascribe to God's actions what was commonly admitted up until recent times.

Here then I want to admit that what the tropar & kondak say & imply are literally correct when it comes to such catastrophes.

KONTAK (Tone 6)
Deliver us from upheavals and from terrible afflictions caused by our sins, O Lord, and spare
Your people whom You have purchased with Your blood, O Master. Do not deliver Your city
to destruction by terrible earthquakes, for we know no other God than You; and to those
who cry out You respond: “I am with you and no one will be against you.

Thus at root of all such catastrophe as the kondak says is our sin; what else could account for death? Certainly to say that nature is the cause just ends up begging the question. This ends up being a circular presentation with no real Christian answer given.

Purpose though is something else. Death is already the effect of sin. It plays a redemptive role to those who approach it in this manner. Catastrophe however is when death confronts man on a massive and unavoidable scale. It allows for little or none of that mental escape act which we all like to indulge in when death approaches. Catastrophe then can be a real judgment. But it also can be a wake up call. Here I think that in the case of the earthquake in Haiti we see such a thing. Catastrophe is a judgment that we are like sleep walkers addicted to our dreams of increasing material prosperity at any cost and to anyone.

Here it is instructive that in modern times it is mostly those whose life is already a daily struggle who are allowed to suffer the direct effects of catastrophe. At first sight this could seem most unjust or unmerciful and thus raise the deepest questions concerning catastrophe. But perhaps the reason that such people are allowed to suffer is because they suffer better than we do whereas we who live in comfort would utterly crumble. (there are plenty of examples of what amounts to a basically hysterical fear of death on our part but they are rarely noticed). Thus the fact that although we all sin but others suffer should give us pause and serve as a wake up call. For it could well be that why others suffer catastrophe while we do not is not because we are 'more fortunate in a socio-economic way' while they are not. Rather it is so that we may come to recognize that due to our own critical sinfulness that we are not really better off or 'more advantaged'. Perhaps then from this perspective a doorway could open up that would allow us to live in a more real way in the presence of God and amidst the life and struggles that He allows.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Andreas Moran

16-01-2010, 02:32 AM

Father David Moser

16-01-2010, 04:27 AM

Throughout history, man has used religion as a means by which he can become "powerless" and thereby without responsibility. It is the fault of the gods that suffering is in the world; natural disasters are caused by the gods because they are displeased or wish to punish; our own inability to get what we want when we want it is the fault of the gods. It is a good thing to be without power for without power we cannot be blamed for anything and thus we don't have to do anything when bad things happen. In our modern society this kind of thinking has found a home in disease (I can't help my sin, I suffer from some psychological disorder/addiction/disability/etc. or perhaps it was some trauma in my youth, or some genetic coding - and of course then we are back full cicle to the gods who made me this way). But the "terrible" thing about Christianity is that we are not powerless. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. Our Lord, Who is all-powerful empowers us. We are not powerless - we are filled with the power of God.

This then opens the door to what Fr Dcn Patrick mentioned above:

Let me put it another way: People drown; does that mean that God causes drownings? But if people had faith, they could walk on water and therefore wouldn't drown. Caught in tempest at sea, they could command the wind and the seas to be still, as Christ did. It is therefore our lack of faith that leads to the disorders we unfortunately call "acts of God." I would say not so much that it's our "lack of faith" but rather our own sinfulness and negligence that cause the earthquakes, and storms and other natural disasters. By our disobedience and subsequent abandonment of our priestly place in creation, we are the cause of all these disruptions and because we are empowered by God, wherever we are, if we were as in communion with God as we should be, we could prevent the tragedy or render it harmless. How many saints have averted floods, turned storms, preserved the faithful by their prayers. It is our lack of prayer, our lack of communion with God that causes the pain and suffering of our innocent brethren in this world.

Christianity is a "terrible" religion for it does not strip us of our power and abrogate us of our responsibility - but it empowers us and gives us the means by which these disasters could be averted or at least the human suffering could be eliminated. So now, when you see an earthquake, or a hurricane or tornado, or wildfire, or plague or any other natural cause of human suffering, think this is my fault for I am the chief of sinners and it is sin that brought such suffering into the world.

Fr David Moser

Paul Cowan

16-01-2010, 05:02 AM

John 9:1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.

Matthew 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[b] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Nina

16-01-2010, 06:47 AM

God does not cause earthquakes. God is perfect and He does not cause imperfections. God creates harmony and love.
Also having talked to many people in the Caribbean area I have seen personally that they face the issue of hurricanes with much simplicity. It happens, yes, and things are destroyed, yes, and poor people suffer *however* much help arrives from US and then we rebuild and life goes on. This is what they have told me. They are poor in those islands, but they are very happy people, and they take pride their little homes are made of stone/brick :) They know how to have quality of life even with that little they have, although they are richly blessed by God with the natural beauty and their beautiful souls.

Father David Moser

16-01-2010, 07:50 AM

But the "terrible" thing about Christianity is that we are not powerless.
...
Christianity is a "terrible" religion for it does not strip us of our power and abrogate us of our responsibility - but it empowers us

After some more thought I finally came up with the right word here - where ever you see "terrible" in this post - please substitute the word "terrifying". It is a much better word for getting across the meaning of what I was trying to say.

Fr David Moser

Evan

16-01-2010, 02:31 PM

We have the luxury of speculating and theologising about this whilst unknown thousands of Haitians suffer. Why should suffering be visited upon them just because they are already so miserable that a bit more misery won't matter so much? I'm sure any Haitian would rather be cogitating about suffering and disasters in a comfortable home in Tunbridge Wells than delving with his bare hands through the rubble of his former hut to find the corpse of his wife.

Frankly, I don't think we should have this thread at all. It is typical of western thinking, infected as it is by the so-called 'Enlightenment', that we search for explanations of the inexplicable. This is why faith was lost in the west - murdering to dissect. In the Gospel quotations we have had above and in the Book of Job, we find no explanations. Why focus on this disaster? What sufferings and disasters have there been since the Massacre of the Innocents? Whose intellect will explain these things? We should close the mouth and keep silent before God.

Andreas,

I put quotes around the initial question for a reason-- it is not my question. It is a question with which I have been confronted, with the expectation that I can "answer" it. I am seeking the proper way to engage people who are perhaps, as you put it, "infected" by Enlightenment thinking and are scandalized by the notion that God would allow such evils to take place, because it just doesn't seem "fair." To that end, I am grateful for the contributions people have made to this thread.

Are you suggesting that those who ask such questions shouldn't be engaged? Perhaps I have misunderstood you.

In any case, forgive me if I have inadvertantly caused any scandal myself.

In Christ,
Evan

Fr Raphael Vereshack

16-01-2010, 03:19 PM

I tend to agree with Fr David here:

it's..rather our own sinfulness and negligence that cause the earthquakes, and storms and other natural disasters. By our disobedience and subsequent abandonment of our priestly place in creation, we are the cause of all these disruptions and because we are empowered by God, wherever we are, if we were as in communion with God as we should be, we could prevent the tragedy or render it harmless. How many saints have averted floods, turned storms, preserved the faithful by their prayers. It is our lack of prayer, our lack of communion with God that causes the pain and suffering of our innocent brethren in this world.

I believe that God takes fully into account our weakness and therefore what is realistic for us. Or to say it another way- Christ did not allow Peter to drown when his faith did not match up to that which would have been required to walk across stormy water.

That is why I see sin more as a kind of invisible energy that is destructive in its effects. Many saints after all have been able to see this distorted & destructive reality in others through a kind of second vision. And many saints (the Elder Paisios I think is one) speak of the cosmic and visible effects of sin. And this is not so difficult to understand if we think of how seriously a situation on the smaller scale can be led in a destructive direction. A word of anger or even a bad thought if left unchecked can have drastic and severe effects.

That's why I would think that on one level how our sin leads to catastrophe is invisible to most of us. We simply do not have the spiritual vision to see this destructiveness at work. But on the other hand if we bring this down to the immediate level of evil in its destructive effects- then I think we can begin to understand these things.

Anyway- the answer to catastrophes both to prevent or to allay them and to live with their aftermath- is clearly a more seriously engaged life in Christ & repentance. Which mostly means calling God to mind & heart.

My comments from yesterday were more from this latter angle: apart from the outrageous levels of unrepented sin in which we all indulge nowadays; our culture is truly marked by a worship of self & materialism that has led to massive complacency concerning God. The result of this can only be self destruction or destruction of the integrity of the human being in his intended divine reality. And if so then it is no surprise if by God's allowance this also leads to more widespread levels of destruction. At this point the physical effects simply reflect the invisible reality of sin. Or to put it another way- somewhat as scientists bring out their drawings of fault lines that run deep under the earth to explain what has led to an earthquake; so we as Christians could bring out our descriptions of that sin which runs deep underneath the surface of visible reality & which affects it.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Aidan Kimel

16-01-2010, 03:37 PM

Perhaps this would be good time to commend David Bentley Hart's meditation upon natural catastrophe: The Doors of the Sea (http://www.amazon.com/Doors-Sea-Where-Was-Tsunami/dp/0802829767/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263652577&sr=8-1).

Brian Patrick Mitchell

16-01-2010, 03:40 PM

I would say not so much that it's our "lack of faith" but rather our own sinfulness and negligence that cause the earthquakes, and storms and other natural disasters. By our disobedience and subsequent abandonment of our priestly place in creation, we are the cause of all these disruptions and because we are empowered by God, wherever we are, if we were as in communion with God as we should be, we could prevent the tragedy or render it harmless. How many saints have averted floods, turned storms, preserved the faithful by their prayers. It is our lack of prayer, our lack of communion with God that causes the pain and suffering of our innocent brethren in this world.

By "lack of faith," I meant our lack of faithfulness, which I think is essentially what Fr. David is saying.

I don't think we can categorically say that God never causes earthquakes. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah; He could very likely have destroyed other people for the same reasons. I don't think He has in this case, and I wouldn't expect that He has for most earthquakes, but we must leave open the possibility, unless we believe that God never intervenes to take someone's life. The scale of the taking makes no difference, since all of us have only one life to take.

Dn. Patrick

Fr Raphael Vereshack

16-01-2010, 03:53 PM

Thanks for this info Father Alvin. Here is a quote from the link to Amazon that you provided.

From Publishers Weekly
Soon after the Indian Ocean tsunami in December, Hart penned two essays, one for the Wall Street Journal and another for First Things, concerning the question of theodicy-how a powerful, loving God co-exists with evil and natural disaster. This book expands on the essay's theological thesis that "what God permits, rather than violate the autonomy of the created world, may be in itself contrary to what he wills." Hart, an Eastern Orthodox Christian, wants to rescue God from predestination. The book begins with an elegant description of the geological factors leading to the earthquake and ensuing tsunami. Hart then admits that, upon learning of this devastation, "we should probably all have remained silent for awhile." But since few did, he joined the chorus in an effort to counter some upsetting arguments given to help people understand God's role in the disaster. Writing in a sophisticated, academic style-highlighting the philosophical and theological writings of Voltaire, Aquinas, Dostoyevsky and Calvin-Hart asks Christians to allow themselves to be moved and horrified by violence, natural or human-made, and, at the same time, to acknowledge that God can and someday will bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. It's an eloquent and persuasive stance.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

I'm not sure I get what is meant by:

This book expands on the essay's theological thesis that "what God permits, rather than violate the autonomy of the created world, may be in itself contrary to what he wills."

In any case- this topic intensely concerns me. The level of suffering involved is so massive and we are also so involved or touched by all of this (our church for example has a mission of about 2000 faithful in Haiti. We still don't know what's happened to all of the clergy let alone the faithful). How can we not ask where God is in all of this and what His purpose is?

One of my chief questions is: why is there this recent pattern of those whose lives are already so filled with suffering being subject to such catastrophes when it is us in our comfort who so freely and without any apparent consequence indulge in sin? I tried to give some tentative answers to this question in my post from yesterday.

Brian Patrick Mitchell

16-01-2010, 04:41 PM

Father David Moser

16-01-2010, 04:52 PM

One of my chief questions is: why is there this recent pattern of those whose lives are already so filled with suffering being subject to such catastrophes when it is us in our comfort who so freely and without any apparent consequence indulge in sin? I tried to give some tentative answers to this question in my post from yesterday.

One of the signs of the last times that have been given us is that there will be an increase in earthquakes and famine and wars - all those things which result in the suffering of the innocent. I think that the reason for this is not God's increasing anger and vengeance, but rather man's increasing loss of his sense of connectedness. Theologically, morally and philosophically we have been progressively distancing ourselves from one another. Just in our own lives, we have seen a loss of national/ethnic identity, the homogenization of culture, the destruction of any sense of being "a people", the rise of individualism (and its associated passions), the loss of the code of moral behavior (I believe Fr Raphael hit on this earlier). Most significantly we have observed the destruction of the family as an integral unit of society. We are losing our sense of being connected to one another (and therefore also our ability to sense compassion and love). Altruism and philanthropy are falling away and "charity" has become something that is a function of tax exemptions and a furthering of our own ideals of worthiness. (Note that some people who have lost all sense of purpose to their lives, instead of turning to faith and religion to find that purpose, instead dedicate their lives to charitable works in an attempt to regain something that they have lost - that is the connection to mankind and to God)

If we truly realized our connection with all of mankind and if we truly were able to grasp the idea of our place as God's priests/stewards/caretakers of creation then we who sin in comfort would begin to see and be horrified at our own role in causing the suffering of others (and therefore our own suffering since we are connected and even the least of our actions has an impact on all mankind). In the Church we still have this awareness and so we struggle against our sins and seek to live lives of compassion. (with this understanding, also, the question of what good is monastic life is answered resoundingly as we see the counterweight of the lives of prayer which the monastics live in balance to our own lives of negligence and involvement in the world.)

I know that my impressions here are a bit raw, however, I hope they make sense. I have a bishop coming today so I'm not sure I'll have the luxury of developing any of this further until after the feast.

Fr David Moser

Fr Raphael Vereshack

16-01-2010, 05:13 PM

Am I alone in thinking that the terrible deaths of 500,000 people is not any more of a philosophical or theological problem than the terrible death of one person? This discussion seems to assume that if 500,000 people suffer terribly all around the world over a millennium it's nothing, but if 500,000 people suffer terribly all on the same day in the same place it's a sign from God. The assumption seems to be that the world is fundamentally orderly and just and that anomalous incidents of extraordinary disorder and injustice are therefore a problem threatening our understanding of the world. Well, if we think that the world is fundamentally orderly and just, the earthquake in Haiti should threaten our understanding of world, because the world is not orderly and just; it is fallen and out of order and behaves without reason, and God allows this for a time because the only way for Him to set everything aright is to put us all in straightjackets or encase us all in stone, to take away all our freedom, which would be to destroy our Godlike nature, and to revoke the dominion that He has given us over this world. Then He could stop all earthquakes and floods and storms and the like.

The magnitude of the disaster in Haiti warrants a commensurate magnitude of response on our part, but it is not an exception to the way of the world and should not pose any special problem for us. If it does, then we are not looking at the world rightly.

Dn. Patrick

Dear Fr,

I think that your questions raise crucial issues. But I do believe that a catastrophe is qualitatively different from individual suffering or death. ie I do not believe that a catastrophe is just a lot of individuals who have suffered or died.

Rather a catastrophe at least as I understand it is some event of increased significance and that has the meaning that Fr David suggests. ie it is death & suffering unleashed through a natural event or a person (or group of people) on a cataclysmic scale. As part of this it always has a social message rather than mainly a personal one which would follow from an individual's death or suffering. In other words it is from this I think that the Church often interprets a catastrophe as a wake up call from God. It has been allowed by God for wider, social reasons & it has meaning for us as part of a greater social reality.

In all of this I'm not trying to deny the role of the individual or person. I'm just saying that the focus is different between catastrophe & individual suffering.

That there is precedent for this way of seeing reality- look at the ongoing search by the Church for meaning when the Roman Empire collapsed in the west; when the Byzantine Empire and Russian Empires collapsed. Also the continual messages in the lives of the saints concerning natural disasters.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Brian Patrick Mitchell

16-01-2010, 06:16 PM

Dear Fr. Raphael,

I have said here that God can cause and has caused great calamities such as earthquakes, against some who have said here that He doesn't ever do so. I would add that He does sometimes allow great calamities for special purposes of "righteous chastisement," even though we pray for Him to spare us such. I do not therefore rule out the possibility that a particular calamity may serve a special divine purpose.

However, the meaning of the large calamity is the same as the meaning of the small calamity. If one family in my parish suddenly died when their house fell in on them, the parish would have occasion to reflect upon the same truth as when many families in a faraway city perish in the same way. Part of that truth is the disordered world we live in as a result of our fall, which allots comforts and miseries unequally among people, among places, and among times.

If we do not understand or accept this part of the truth and look instead for some special meaning in every great calamity, we open the door to several dangers: foolish speculation about the special sins of the afflicted people ("They made a deal with the devil"), Calvinist confidence in the sovereignty of God ("God did it"), and embarrassment of the Gospel through our obvious difficulty in confidently providing good, simple explanations for common occurrences.

It seems to me solipsistic for us to look for special meaning in every earthquake, as if God made or allowed the Haitians to suffer so that we Americans would learn something. This personalizes the sufferings of many other people just as much and less appropriately than our own personal suffering. It also seems to me somewhat superstitious to over dramatize natural disasters as exceptional events with special moral meaning.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

Owen Jones

16-01-2010, 06:34 PM

Powerlessness is the beginning point of Christianity and what distinguishes it from everything else. It is a voluntary surrendering of power, becoming a slave to Christ, so that God's power can then be manifested in and through the believer. To accept powerlessness, and to adopt an attitude of powerlessness is not a shirking of moral duty. It has nothing to do with fatalism or with stoicism (although ancient Roman stoicism has been inaccurately portrayed for the most part). As for various contemporary uses of the term powerless, it was certainly never intended as exempting one from moral responsibility, except by stupid people who do not comprehend the spiritual paradox at play.

As for natural disasters and powerlessness, etc., any spiritually sensitive person is going to try to relate such disasters to God in some way. The secular person is going to say, what stupid, superstitious people! Don't they see that that attitude is self-defeating? How can we even help such people??? It is really no different than personal disasters. The real issue about powerlessness is control and domination. Most people believe that the key to happiness, success and self-fulfillment, all of which are distortions or deformations of the soul in the first place, is to acquire power, control and domination over one's environment, either through will, passion, or intellect, with the latter always being the most deadly. Thinking that you are in control because you have arrived at certain unassailable intellectual conclusions is the cause of all other evils.

If a natural disaster, or personal disaster forces people to become humble and grateful, then, whatever it takes! But those oriented by power will say that this problem must never be allowed to happen again. If only people weren't poor. If only people had given more. If only there were no corruption. If only buildings had been built better. If only....

The power oriented person is actually going to become angry at any disaster and think the solution is to first find blame, punish those responsible, then reform the whole way people do things, and then expect, naively and childishly, that all of his good intentions will prevent anything bad ever happening again.

Andreas Moran

16-01-2010, 07:46 PM

Andreas,

I put quotes around the initial question for a reason-- it is not my question. It is a question with which I have been confronted, with the expectation that I can "answer" it. I am seeking the proper way to engage people who are perhaps, as you put it, "infected" by Enlightenment thinking and are scandalized by the notion that God would allow such evils to take place, because it just doesn't seem "fair." To that end, I am grateful for the contributions people have made to this thread.

Are you suggesting that those who ask such questions shouldn't be engaged? Perhaps I have misunderstood you.

In any case, forgive me if I have inadvertantly caused any scandal myself.

In Christ,
Evan

Dear Evan,

No, you have not caused any scandal. I think Owen, in his post 29, comes close to what I was thinking (if I have understood him correctly). I think that for us to have a discussion about this particular disaster is rather unseemly. In general terms, I do not think we are empowered to reverse the effects suffered by the natural world as a result of the Fall. There are, I believe, instances here and there now and then when prayer - for rain, for example - is heard by God. But generally, we will not change the fallen natural world or its effects upon mankind. To assert that we can may lead, as it seems to me, at best to disappointment and at worst to despair and loss of faith. The fallen natural world can be a dangerous place. Disasters can certainly be a test of faith. But what Christ has empowered us to do is to have a faith which stands such testing, a faith to accept God's will when faced with those things which are beyond our enquiry, scrutiny and comprehension.

Paul Cowan

16-01-2010, 08:36 PM

Has anyone read the story of Jonah lately? His self righteous expectation of punishment of Ninevah.

I believe God will take the life of a person to prevent them from greater sins in the future to help them save themselves from hell. I fully believe this is what happened with my own father (nonorthodox).

I do not believe though and I site Ninevah and my father as my base, that God will NOT kill "you" (plural or singular) to help "me" repent. That is a cruel God and not one I want to know. I can say for certain that I hope I do not die in a freak tornado over my house so a person in Haiti will debate over my death and think he should repent over his sins. If a person has to rely on the death of another to say "hummm, I should probably look at myself and repent" then that person is in a world of hurt. I dare say he will not come to that conclusion on his own and my death is for naught.

Nina, you said

It happens, yes, and things are destroyed, yes, and poor people suffer *however* much help arrives from US and then we rebuild and life goes on. This is what they have told me.

Our government is sending over $100,000,000. Money we don't have. Money we are borrowing from China. Money that I seriously doubt will go where it is needed but to the pockets of the dictators and gangs as it has over the decades and is proof since they are no better off today than they were in the 1950's. Our politically motivated "help" can not be sustained or repeated without further bankrupting our own country. We are trillions of dollars in debt now. Where are they getting this extra cash? We are criticized for being the police force of the world. The US can not be the EMT of the world also. WE in the near future will have to rely on the poorer nations to support US. We can't even support ourselves.

Sorry for the soapbox.

How is this for a topic to look at...
God is a personal God and is fully functional and interactive in the lives of His people.
God set the universe in motion and has nothing else to do with it and its natural state of (d)evolution.
God's relationship to His people is a by-product of the natural occurences of the (d)evolution of the universe He set in motion and peoples' existence in relation to natural occurences in that universe.

Paul

Kosta

16-01-2010, 10:37 PM

There are indeed cases where natural disasters are wrought by collective mans' sin's. Whether it be Sodom and Gomorah or the fall of Constantinople. Both jews and Orthodox christians have ascribed cetrain tragic events in their histories as chastisements. The earthquake in Haiti is too fresh and the peoples suffering is great and unbearable, and we shouldnt kick them when their down. I'll pray for now, and if this topic is still running in a month, ill chime in with my 2 cents.

Nina

17-01-2010, 02:20 AM

Fr Raphael Vereshack

17-01-2010, 10:09 PM

It seems that the most obvious place to look for advice on such a topic would be in the Fathers. However with Theophany on the way for us on the OC I am far too busy to find such homilies. All I can find right now with the very brief time at hand is the following from Oct 26 which is when we remember the Great Earthquake of Constaninople in 740. In the desctription for that day in St Nikolai Velimirovich's Prologue it says:

In the time of the Emperor Leo the Isaurian, in 740, there was a terrifying and long-lasting earthquake in Constantinople. The people realised that this was God`s punishment for their sins and entreated the most holy Mother of God and St Dimitrios with great penitence, until God had mercy and the earthquake ended.

Then Le Synaxaire from Simonos Petras monastery on Mt Athos has a simple commemoration title:

Memory of the great and fearsome earthquake which out of love for man, God sent on the city of Constantinople in 740, under the iconoclast emperor Leo the Isaurian, so that from this threat the Christians would repent of their numerous sins.

Now normally these titles & entries are taken from the older lives of saints and in both these cases this seems almost certain. What is interesting then is that while both of these are different from the other, they both ascribe earthquakes to one source- our sin. The Synaxaire edition however is even more audacious in calling an earthquake an act of God`s love so that we would repent of our sins.

Now although such descriptions are brief enough their message is quite clear. The only way to misread them would be from an attempt to see them either as merely `mythical`descriptions of God`s activity or as old fashioned and therefore not applicable in reality. However I do not think that either way of looking at this is proper to the Patristic tradition or proper to what has occurred.

Instead I take it that these descriptions say exactly but in theological language what an earthquake is.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Andreas Moran

17-01-2010, 11:30 PM

But whose sins? Those of Haitians? Of ours in England, the US and Canada? Or of mankind's as a whole? And if the latter, why do the Haitians suffer so for them - are they more sinful and deserving of chastisement? Any opinion must be capable of standing the pastoral test. Who would go to the widow of a drowned sailor and say that if he'd had greater faith, he could have walked across the surface of the sea to dry land? Who would go to any of the injured or bereaved Haitians and say that this is a sign of God's love so that they would repent?

Fr Raphael Vereshack

17-01-2010, 11:32 PM

But whose sins? Those of Haitians? Of ours in England, the US and Canada? Or of mankind's as a whole? And if the latter, why do the Haitians suffer so for them - are they more sinful and deserving of chastisement?

This is a very good good question I believe.

Let`s keep in mind though that it is definitely not correct to think that our sins do not have a destructive effect on others around us. Even the most immediate evidence shows that the effect of our sins spreads like a wave to effect others in a profound way. If this occurs then as part of the `normal`course of things through God`s allowance then it is not such a stretch to understand how our sins could have a much wider effect also.

The only question then becomes not whether this occurs- but how it corresponds to God`s mercy.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Fr Raphael Vereshack

17-01-2010, 11:52 PM

A big PS to the above. I speak in my posts as greatly influenced from my priestly experience with others. As any priest can tell you when he is involved in a parish `situation`this brings him rapidly to the point where he can see how individual sin affects so many others. He sees that sin is like dropping a stone into a pond where the waves spread to cross the whole pond. It is not long before he stands contemplating this process and greatly struck by how the sin of one person touches so many. Finally he stands before the entire pattern and no longer can unravel in a rational way the multiple effects caused by this. He sees that only common work, repentance and turning to Christ can unravel the effects of human sin.

Again then on the larger, cosmic level it is no stretch for the priest to see the larger world situation in a similar fashion. Sin spreads its effects like an invisible wave, potentially destructive but also potentially for the good if it is approached in repentance and turning to Christ.

Do I repent when you hurt me by your sin- the answer is yes.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Andreas Moran

17-01-2010, 11:56 PM

A big PS to the above. I speak in my posts as greatly influenced from my priestly experience with others. As any priest can tell you when he is involved in a parish `situation`this brings him rapidly to the point where he can see how individual sin affects so many others. He sees that sin is like dropping a stone into a pond where the waves spread to cross the whole pond. It is not long before he stands contemplating this process and greatly struck by how the sin of one person touches so many. Finally he stands before the entire pattern and no longer can unravel in a rational way the multiple effects caused by this. He sees that only common work, repentance and turning to Christ can unravel the effects of human sin.

Again then on the larger, cosmic level it is no stretch for the priest to see the larger world situation in a similar fashion. Sin spreads its effects like an invisible wave, potentially destructive but also potentially for the good if it is approached in repentance and turning to Christ.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

This is exactly what I was taught by Bishop Eirenaios (God rest his soul). The weak and innocent suffer from the sins of the strong and wicked. The developed world has raped the earth and she protests.

Paul Cowan

18-01-2010, 12:08 AM

The weak and innocent suffer from the sins of the strong and wicked. The developed world has raped the earth and she protests.

ummm, no. Global warming or cooling did not do this. Ozone pollution did not do this. extraction of too much fossile fuel did not do this. The weight of 6+ billion fat human bodies did not do this. Flatulance did not do this. 2 techtonic plates shifted against each other directly under the island did this. It just so happens those living on the island were poor and constructed poor structures.

I will admit the developed world, ALL of it not just the US, needs to be its brother's keeper. But even if the Haitians were as "wealthy" as the Queen of England, the earthquake would still have occured directly beneath them. Then again, perhaps satan's flatulance did cause this.

Fr Raphael Vereshack

18-01-2010, 12:15 AM

Paul... maybe I`m not understanding. But `natural`disasters and the consequent death they cause are a result of the Fall. Or to say it another way- earthquakes, floods, etc were not found in Paradise.

Thus the death or hurt now potentially caused by nature is a result of the Fall, our sin. That is why saints such as St Herman can cause such disasters to cease- in their `space`nature reverts to its true and benevolent natural state.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Brian Patrick Mitchell

18-01-2010, 12:37 AM

What I have written so far allows for the traditional interpretation of the earthquake in Constantinople in 740. Yet in accepting that interpretation, we are not obliged to interpret all earthquakes or all suffering the same way. Certainly sin is the ultimate cause of all suffering, and so all suffering may be viewed as “righteous chastisement” for our sins. But that’s not the only way to look at things, and looking at things only in that way tends to cast God in the role of an angry and unloving mountain deity who demands propitiation and punishes people inequitably, heaping heartbreaks on the humble while coddling the proud in comfort.

We as Christians, schooled in the Holy Wisdom, should be able to make more sense of things. We should be able to tell those who suffer something more than that God is punishing them for their sins. We should be able to explain why some suffer and some don’t, and why the good sometimes suffer more than the wicked. The lesson of 740, all by itself, isn’t often enough.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

Paul Cowan

18-01-2010, 12:53 AM

Yes, Fr. Raphael, you are of course correct. I was taking issue with the current state of affairs in the world and the industrialized world has raped it and caused the earthquake.

Sin due to the fall and the fallen world has broken everything and we are subject to that brokenness. Nothing in the turn of the century has caused this event to occur. Sin throughout the millenias has. It's like saying the world has warmed 1/2 of one degree in the past century and we are all going to die if we don't go "green". The world is actually cooling these past 15 years and we are still going to die if we don't go "green". Nothing in a short time frame will cause massive change. Massive change occurs over a long time period. China did not grow to 4 billion people over night. This earthquake did not either. forces were acting on it via the cosmic nature of sin through the forces of gravity to cause the damage.

I don't think I can express myself well enough here. modern man though he may be more sinful than man of antiquity did not cause this earthquake. The fall of man of from antiquity and modern man's participation in sin has allowed the brokenness of the cosmos to manifest itself in this earthquake.

Paul

Evan

18-01-2010, 02:28 AM

AP:Religious Haitians Say Earthquake Was God Asking for Change

Deeply religious Haitians see the hand of God in the destruction of Biblical proportions visited on their benighted country. The quake, religious leaders said Sunday, is evidence that He wants change.

Exactly what change He wants depends on the faith: Some Christians say it's a sign that Haitians must deepen their faith, while some Voodoo followers see God's judgment on corruption among the country's mostly light-skinned elite.

And then there's American evangelist Pat Robertson, who said Wednesday that Haiti had been cursed by a pact he said its slave founders made with the devil two centuries ago to overthrow their French rulers and become the world's first black republic. The White House called his remarks "stupid."

As desperate believers gathered to pray Sunday across the shattered capital, the Rev. Eric Toussaint told a congregation gathered outside the ruined cathedral that the earthquake "is a sign from God, saying that we must recognize his power."
Haitians, he said, "need to reinvent themselves, to find a new path to God."

Some followers of Voodoo, practised alongside Roman Catholicism by the vast majority of Haitians, said the devastation of key symbols of power was punishment for corrupt leaders who have allowed the mostly light-skinned elite to enrich themselves while the black majority suffers.

"If all of a sudden, in 15 seconds, 20 seconds, all the physical representations of corruption are destroyed, it gives you pause for thought," said Richard Morse, a renowned Haitian-American musician whose mother was a singer and revered Voodoo priestess. "The Justice Ministry: down. The National Palace: down. The United Nations headquarters: down."
Unharmed by the quake was the famed bronze statue, "Le Maron Inconnu" — "the Unknown Escaped Slave" — noted Morse, who owns the Oloffson Hotel featured in Graham Greene's novel "The Comedians."

The destruction of every major Catholic church in the capital, including the 81-year-old cathedral, also was a sign, he said: "When there is all this corruption going on, whose role is it in society to speak out? Isn't the Church supposed to say something?"

Most Haitians are Christian — largely Catholic with a small but growing number of Protestants. But most also practice Voodoo, which along with Catholicism is an official state religion.

Several people were seen issuing apocalyptic warnings on the streets Sunday, including a man standing in front of the collapsed National Palace shouting: "Redeem yourselves! The end of the world is near!"

But Morse noted that Haitians are already very religious. His countrymen may suffer many ills, but "when it comes to spiritual strength, Haiti is one of the richest nations in the world."

Brian Patrick Mitchell

18-01-2010, 03:29 AM

I submit that the judgment that God caused this earthquake to punish the Haitians is a judgment best made by the Haitians themselves. So I return to my first words on this thread: We who are not Haitians have no way of knowing whether God caused this earthquake to punish them and should instead regard it as a not-unusual occurrence of a fallen and therefore disordered world.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

Evan

18-01-2010, 03:38 AM

I submit that the judgment that God caused this earthquake to punish the Haitians is a judgment best made by the Haitians themselves. The rest of us should judge it to be a not-unusual occurrence of a fallen and therefore disordered world.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

Father, bless:

I did not intend to imply otherwise. Yet surely we can hope and pray that these suffering people continue to hope and pray?

In Christ,
Evan

Brian Patrick Mitchell

18-01-2010, 04:24 AM

Pardon me, Evan. I didn't mean to suggest that your were implying anything, but other participants in this discussion seemed to have argued in the direction of the quake as a special judgment on the Haitians or someone else. I think we should reserve judgment and, as you say, hope and pray.

Thanks for the article.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

Andreas Moran

18-01-2010, 09:37 AM

Presumably, we have as much of an issue with geologists as we have with Darwinians.

Alice

18-01-2010, 12:37 PM

I think that journalists that write articles such as the one a few posts above, need to be careful with the term 'religious'. Any Christian, Orthodox or Catholic, no matter how 'religious' in their Christian faith, who also practices, entertains, or delves into the black arts such as the Haitians do, is cavorting with demons and the devil and is jeopardizing his immortal soul. Period.

Never the less, I pray with all my heart that after this horror, which I pray will be alleviated quickly, that the Haitian people will turn to Christ in a pure way, unadulterated by cavorting with demons, and resist and rebuke the occult, and the voodoo which many there have embraced and which has dominated the lives of so many of them. What has happened to them is so very sad and heartbreaking. But for the grace of God go any of us. However, I admit that I have always found their fascination with demons equally sad and heartbreaking, as well as very frightening.

I thought this was interesting, since African voodoo is the same voodoo practiced in Haiti. (this is not an Orthodox source, but it was an excellent book)

From the book by Father Gabriel Amorth, 'An Exorcist Tells His Story':

In voodoo, the androgynous snake Danbhalah and Aida Wedo guides its followers with a surety and precision that gives stunning results at any hour of the day and night. This snake claims to know all the secrets of the Creator Verb through the "magic language", whose power is increased by sacred music. This is Haitian magic, which together with the original African and the imorted South American magic (particularly from Brazil) called "macumbe" has great evil power. I have already mentioned that the toughest curses I have ever exorcised came either from Brazil or Africa.

In Christ our Lord and Saviour,
Alice

Fr Raphael Vereshack

18-01-2010, 02:47 PM

Fr Dn Brian Patrick Mitchell wrote:

Certainly sin is the ultimate cause of all suffering, and so all suffering may be viewed as “righteous chastisement” for our sins. But that’s not the only way to look at things, and looking at things only in that way tends to cast God in the role of an angry and unloving mountain deity who demands propitiation and punishes people inequitably, heaping heartbreaks on the humble while coddling the proud in comfort.

We as Christians, schooled in the Holy Wisdom, should be able to make more sense of things. We should be able to tell those who suffer something more than that God is punishing them for their sins. We should be able to explain why some suffer and some don’t, and why the good sometimes suffer more than the wicked. The lesson of 740, all by itself, isn’t often enough.

Thanks for your comments Father.

But to be fair we should distinguish between a chastisement for 'our sins' and a chastisement for 'their sins'. Even the understanding of chastisement receives considerable nuance from most.

What most understand by "God's punishment for their sins" (the wording as found in St Nikolai's Prologue) is God calling us to repentance with the catastrophe serving as the loud wake up call.

Again I tend to see these things as being similar to social cataclysms. Thus not so many years before the Russian revolution of 1917, very, very few Russians had even heard of Lenin. The Bolshevik party was of almost zero influence. And yet the faint shock waves caused by the thoughts and actions of this one person cascaded into a tidal wave of conscious death and destruction that makes Haiti seem almost benign in contrast. Historical interpretations aside (for the details of this are not my point) here again we see that phenomenon which occurs on both the natural & social plane. Little or very little is noticed by most- only those with their ears to the ground (and these prophetic ones are very few in every generation) hear the warning rumblings. And they warn their people (something we overlook in our feeling that God is harsh) ...but their voices are not heard in the noise and distraction. Of course it could be asked what the similarity is here between a possible warning of social & natural catastrophe. No- we don't at all mean scientific warnings or forecasts. Rather we mean Christian sensitivity to reality in general, that true we do not know when the event is coming...but how is it that we are not aware as Christians that we from our own sin have inclined the total environment towards a catastrophe or wake up call? Aren't we liable to the accusation of willful blindness? And when later generations look to the unexpected catastrophe that occurred and accuse God or whomever of unfeeling meanness was it correct to overlook the state of uncaring sin that we lived in as if it was of no effect?

Thus I believe that we are very much called to be aware and awake (not paranoid) to the consequence of our sin. Yes- sin arrives at our doorways in ways in which we can prevent it from entering. But at times sin also arrives in an overwhelming way and far beyond our means to do anything else than to endure, be patient and to learn.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Fr Raphael Vereshack

18-01-2010, 03:16 PM

Our church has an Orthodox mission in Haiti of about 2000 people. I personally know one of the priests who serve this mission; our parish over the years has sent the mission donations of various kinds. During the recent disaster our church/clergy lists have also kept us up to date with announcements as to who is missing and who has been found. Add to this the fact that Canada (mainly in Quebec where I grew up where the first language is French) has a large and known Haitian community (thus the media as well as gov't involvement is very intense right now) and this means that I personally have an involvement in this tragedy and consequent sorrow.

But for all this I really do not believe that those who do not have such a level of involvement have not the ability to discern as to the meaning of God's providence. Nor do I believe that it is correct to expect that they should not probe with burning questions about God's providence. This surely is not right for even a child asks 'why' when it sees someone else suffer. This is part of being human after all which by that very fact draws us into one community. So all the more is this so for Christians who are consequently drawn together as one in Christ and then naturally seek how God relates to us His children. Shared humanity gives insights that go beyond the need for an identical experience.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Brian Patrick Mitchell

18-01-2010, 03:44 PM

Thank you, Father Raphael, for your insight. What you say makes great sense. For the sake of perspective, I'll offer these words from Luke 14:

1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Of course, the perishing Christ means is not the death of the body, but the damnation of the soul and the body, for we shall all die in this body, and the reason and occasion for our dying is not always or only that God is punishing particular sins or making an example of us for others.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

Anna Stickles

19-01-2010, 03:01 AM

I've really benefited from catching up on this thread. Particularly Fr David's and Fr Raphael's remarks.

the reason and occasion for our dying is not always or only that God is punishing particular sins or making an example of us for others.I think you are looking at this backwards. The reason for our dying is always sin, whether ours personally or corporately. But this is not a case of God "deciding to make an example of someone" this would indeed would be cruel. However, that does not mean that we should not look at history and take examples and lessons from it and interpret in light of knowing how God deals with people. This latter certainly has precedent in Tradition.

I found ran across this quote in II Maccabees a couple of weeks ago and it stuck in my mind and I thought it might be relevant here.

"Now I urge those who read this book not be discouraged by these calamaties but to recognize that these punishments were for the discipline of our people, but not for their destruction. For it is an act of great kindness for the Lord not to allow our people to act ungodly for long, but to punish them immediately. But the Lord does not act the same way with other nations. He waits patiently until they attain the completion of their sins, then punishes them. Thus He does not judge us in this way, so as to take vengeance on us afterwards when we have reached the end of our sinning. For this very reason He never withdraws His mercy from us." 6:12-16
Just historically we can see that no culture has lasted, but has at last filled up their sins and brought God's judgement on themselves. (No doubt our time will come, but maybe God is waiting till the Church is strong enough to provide a shelter through it. I think it no accident that Russia had 100 years of revival before the Communists came to power.)
But I like how the verse above shows how God deals differently with His own people because He knows that His judgements will be provoke repentance. Although even in the case of Ninevah, when Jonah preached to them and they repented God delayed His judgement several hundred years till they had hardened themselves to the point of no return.

When Michael and I were in college our church supported a missionary from Haiti and his report was similiar to what Alice said. The spiritual atmosphere there was dark, full of oppression and fear. And historically the Haitian slaves did hold a big ceremony making a pact with one of their important spirits promising to serve him if he would free them. Reports say that approx 80% of the population follows the Haitian spiritualist religion - which has Catholic elements mixed in but which is not Christian at all but full of fear and superstition. But maybe this disaster and the attention it brings will open a door to more Christian influence. And certainly the elders of the Church while speaking of the waves of sin also speak of the waves of good will that can be passed around. How many people have had some compassion awakened in them, who otherwise would have remained cold and indifferent? How many Haitians will have some thankfulness stirred in their hearts who otherwise would have lived in indifference and despair? This cannot fail to have some good effect.

Sorry if these thoughts are a bit random.

Brian Patrick Mitchell

19-01-2010, 04:26 AM

Anna,

No one is saying that sin is not the cause of suffering, but some of us (or perhaps only me) are warning that it is not so easy to say that a particular sin is the cause of a particular suffering. Sometimes the cause and effect might seem obvious to the discerning, but most times it is not so obvious, and if we only understand suffering in terms of immediate cause and immediate effect, we will be tempted to assume an essentially superstitious regard for "acts of God," always wondering what those who suffer did to deserve their punishment. My citation from Luke 14 speaks to that point.

Your citation from II Maccabees illustrates one way in which the Jews just prior to the Incarnation were attempting to understand their own suffering. I would caution that their perspective, on the far side of the Incarnation, is somewhat wanting (an understatement) and that while there is some truth to what was written, it misses the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that the fall has thrown material creation into disorder, and the good and the bad alike suffer amid that disorder. In the resurrection, once we are all reunited with God through Christ, we will be able, as the God-like link between Creator and creation, to restore order to world. Then there will be no earthquakes.

After all that has been said, the fundamental difference I see here in this discussion is between those who believe that God allows creation some freedom to misbehave and those who see creation's misbehavior only as acts of God. The former see God as intervening on occasion to cause or prevent suffering; the latter assume that all suffering is instigated by God in response to the particular sins of those He causes to suffer. I count myself among the former.

In Christ, Dn. Patrick

Owen

19-01-2010, 04:58 AM

God causes earthquakes in the sense that He has created Earth in such a manner that they will happen from time to time. He did not proactively will the Fall, but programmed the consequences of the Fall; likewise, He does not put a limit on our freedom of will, but does program the consequences of the choices we make. I take this to be implied in what Jesus said in Luke 15.

Gloria

19-01-2010, 05:30 AM

Maybe I should have described the tenor of the questions differently. "Did God cause THIS earthquake?"
No.

I do not believe God causes natural disasters anymore than I believe that God makes one man rich and another poor (monetarily speaking).

Earthquakes will occur anywhere within the earth where there is sufficient stored elastic energy. I live on the San Andrea's fault, Pacific side, moving toward San Francisco at the rate of 3 inches per year. However, one day the fault will give one giant heave-ho and we will have one massive earthquake here. Not by God's hand, but by the natural forces of nature.

Owen

19-01-2010, 07:54 AM

I'm on the same side of that fault. "And we shall all go together when we go."

Effie Ganatsios

19-01-2010, 10:55 AM

God does not cause earthquakes. God is perfect and He does not cause imperfections. God creates harmony and love.
.

Absolutely Nina!

Many years ago I read something that made a great impression on me. A true story.

A pious man, not Orthodox, spent 1/2 hr each morning in stillness, waiting to hear God's voice. He speaks to us but we have so many other concerns that we just don't listen. This man had learnt over the years to absolutely trust the voice of God inside him.

On holiday one year, a huge fire broke out in the hotel he was staying in. He was trapped in his room on the 4th or 5th floor of the hotel. He was scared and wanted to jump out the window as so many other people were doing. But he had learnt to trust the voice of God and it was telling him to wait. He panicked a couple of times, especially when his room started to fill with smoke but he put his trust in God. When he was barely able to breathe the voice told him to step onto the sill of the window. He did and at that moment he saw a fire department ladder coming towards him. Up to now there had been nothing. It was just a little lower than his window sill and he was able, with the help of the firefighters, to jump down. Coincidence?

Bad things happen but if we learn to listen to God's voice within us, and if it is God's will, we will survive.

What kind of God do we believe in? What kind of God would sentence children to lingering deaths under tons of rubble? No God that I know.

Rather, blame Haiti's corrupt governments and the exploitation of this country by other more powerful nations who have used it as some sort of cheap labour supply, taking money out of the country instead of investing in it's economy. The emergency services in this country are poor. Building codes are non-existent. Of course with an earthquake of this size even earthquake resistant buildings would collapse, but I believe that the damage might have been less if they had been built to withstand earthquakes. Hundreds of people died unnecessarily because Haiti did not have the means to save them.

Some information about Haiti http://static.rnw.nl/migratie/www.radionetherlands.nl/documentaries/061204doc-redirected

What is encouraging is that millions of people around the world have dug deep into their pockets to help, even though they are in the midst of an economic crisis. Of course, what we consider economic difficulties must seem ridiculous to these people who are the poorest in the Western Hemisphere.

The true heroes of our age are the brave young men who risk their lives by digging through rubble to find survivors. Our EKAB (National Emergency Services Centre) teams are our pride. These men sacrifice their lives for others.

God bless all the volunteers from so many countries who are in Haiti helping these poor people.

Effie

Fr Raphael Vereshack

19-01-2010, 02:50 PM

I appreciate a lot of these comments. I hadn't given enough thought to God's providence as it relates to us personally. We should keep this in mind in relation to catastrophes since we already try to keep it in mind according to what befalls us individually.
The insight on cause & effect is certainly correct as far as what most of us can see. It is in this one area that I feel that the greatest temptation lies.
I also appreciate the comments on the consequence of our choices and the relation to freedom of will. This is so fundamental to our understanding of man's effect on creation in a cosmic sense. God's providence then surely works in relation to this freedom of ours and also to the consequences that we have on His creation.

Probably a more careful choice of words is needed though when it comes to 'God does not cause earthquakes.' This is at risk of making a true point but of missing another one. For on the one hand God obviously is not the cause of death; but yet He most certainly does arrange death so that it acts as the cessation of sin. This is pointed out continuously through the Fathers; it is a major point of Christ's crucifixion; and is referred to continuously throughout our memorial and funeral services.

Where our anger comes in though I think is due to the finality of death. This no one in their right mind could calmly take or accept as loving. However what we need to keep in mind is that God has taken death and made it one of the chief doorways to life so that death is no longer a hallway with no doors leading out from it.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Eric Peterson

19-01-2010, 08:48 PM

I think we tend, too often, to look at suffering in a temporal way. We're finite, and cannot see what God gives to those who have suffered on this earth patiently and with faith. We cannot see, either, what God's providence has planned, mysteriously, for everyone, and how the events of this life echo in eternity.

It's well-meaning to say that the God we know does not cause, for example, children to suffer. That would seem to us to be sadistic and cruel. So, we put the cause of this suffering elsewhere. I think, though, that this is a bit like putting God in a box. Nothing happens without God. We worship a God who endured suffering and death as part of His own will, in order to save mankind. I remember the holy fathers writing that we must understand passages of Scripture speaking, fore example, of God's wrath or judgment in a God-befitting way. We look at God too much in a human way. While the Word became flesh, He still remained God.

I remember some of the holy fathers writing about suffering, and saying it was a gift from God. Should we accept the good gifts He gives only, and reject the painful ones? they would ask. While suffering and catastrophe are painful, they are not at all outside of God's providence and saving will.

I remember reading, also, this saying--that there are two kinds of suffering--that endured because of sin, and that endured innocently. The innocent who suffer, suffer with Christ. And the guilty who suffer, receive forgiveness--like the Wise Thief.

I think, maybe, that this earthquake occurred for the same reason others have--and that reason is, fundamentally, a mystery. But, as a nun told me, no one goes before his time--God takes each person when he is ready to go. Chaos does not rule the world, God does.

We have a God who desires our salvation and healing. For this purpose, the Physician uses means which, while painful and mysterious, are effective for His purpose. And the end result we will know fully only on that last day. A cure might involve tears, but our Physician is the one who will wipe every tear away. And, as if that were not enough, He has provided His Holy Mother and the Saints for our aid as well. And we know from their lives the sufferings they also endured--but suffering with a purpose, even if that purpose was only revealed after their deaths.

Anna Stickles

20-01-2010, 02:47 AM

This no one in their right mind could calmly take or accept as loving.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

I don't know. I think that if we truly accepted that death is given by God to us as His personal and loving will there is no anger, even without knowing whether it leads to life. Perfect faith is when God's will is seen as good in and of itself apart from what it may dish out to us. Christ was not angry at being called to die, and I think this was not merely because He knew He could not die, but because of His perfect love for and trust in the Father. Perfect love bears all things, perfect trust questions nothing but accepts anything even death. One of the most beautiful pictures we have of this is Jephthah's daughter in Judges 11. When she realized that her father had made a vow such that she would have to die she said, "36 "My father, you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised," This was before a belief in the resurrection. (Is she recognized as a saint? I certainly think she should be. This virgin certainly was being saved for the Lord.)

The anger I think always comes in because somewhere in our heart we are accusing God of being unjust and we are doubting that He really loves us. There is so much in our culture (and it has terribly infected the Christians) that teaches us that we are at the mercy of unchangeable, and therefore unjust natural laws that operate wholly apart from any consideration of our individual reality. If we accept the views of science then we must accept that God has given us over to a 'governor' that is wholly uncaring and unmerciful, applying equal injustice to all...except in special cases where an absent God, decides randomly for unknown reasons to intervene via a miracle and show His love or punish something particularly bad. But if this is the view we have we always end up asking, "God why did you intervene there, and not here?" The answer to the question is not to blindly say that God is good in His randomness, but to change our view to one that sees God as always intervening and showing His love. (Thank you Eric for your contribution.)

In the end any view which accepts the precepts of science and assigns final causes to the material creation leads to despair. It is one thing to be powerless in the hands of a loving God, it is another to be powerless in the face of arbitrary and uncaring forces. The heart grows in the former case and dies in the latter.

Fr Raphael Vereshack

22-01-2010, 03:41 PM

I meant- if death was final. :)

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Panayota K.

22-01-2010, 04:15 PM

Dear friends,

As one who has made no secret of my faith in an extremely secular environment, I have, over the last couple days, been besieged (in a friendly but earnest way) with questions about the devestation and carnage in Haiti. Without dwelling on what answers I have already provided, I would ask those more knowledgable than I as to the proper way in which to engage people who do expect me to provide a "Christian" answer to the question at hand.

Lord have mercy on all those who suffer from the groans of creation.

In Christ,
Evan

Evan, you reminded me of my years back at school when I was obviously a "church girl" and every time there was a reportage on the news regarding the Church, then the next day I was expected to answer questions of my angry fellow students. The funny thing is that at the time i didn't watch at all television because I was studing hard for the National Exams and didn't want interruptions. So very often I had no clue what they were talking about ("Why the priest didn't baptise the baby of unmarried parents?" "What baby, what priest?" etc)

Nevertheless I had to defend my faith, or so I felt. Most of the times God provided me the right answers and my friends understood sth more about our faith. I wasn't that smart or well-informed to confront them so our Lord covered my weakness and made (I hope) sth good out of it. Perhaps you should leave it to Him. If He answers then all is good, if He doesn't then there is a reason for that and you will gain humility. Confronting a rather curious than caring audience with silence...it's a very interesting experience..!

In Christ
P

Marge Kostas

22-01-2010, 06:34 PM

Olympiada

22-01-2010, 08:15 PM

If you read theology you will find out that when Adam and Eve fell, all of creation fell with them. Its not that God "allows" earthquakes to happen, its that evil is an active force working against God. It exists of its own accord, its an independent entity from God. There is a church father that posits this kind of theology, I can't remember his name at the moment. He was an intellectual at St. Vlad's at the time of Alexander Schmemann.

Father David Moser

22-01-2010, 11:41 PM

Just saw this endless thread....can we move on? How about prayers for the victims of Haiti? And financial support - either crs.org (Catholic) or iocc.org (Orthodox) - or one of your choosing. Enough philosophizing and provide some help!

Marge, perhaps you misunderstand the scope and purpose of this forum - it is about the discussion of these questions. There are indeed many fora in which the discussion of concrete provision of help to those who are victims of disasters - and there are plenty of people on this forum - who are, in this case interested in the theological understanding of the relationship between what appears to be evil in he world and the ominpotence and goodness of God - who have given and continue to give support financial and real. This forum is about Orthodox theology and its patristic, liturgical and monastic exploration. This discussion is very much on topic here. This discussion of concrete aid opportunities has plenty of expression elsewhere.

Fr David Moser

Father David Moser

22-01-2010, 11:43 PM

[Evil] exists of its own accord, its an independent entity from God. There is a church father that posits this kind of theology

There is no "entity" in creation which is independent from God - this would make God non-unique and not God. In fact it sounds a lot like the heresy of dualism. Please provide some citation which supports your statement.

Fr David Moser

Olympiada

22-01-2010, 11:50 PM

Fr. David, Here is an article by Archpriest George Florovsky. This is what I am basing my opinion on.

Fr. Georges Florovsky, "The Darkness of Night: Evil is Among Us": Chapter IV of the Collected Works of Georges Florovsky, Vol. III: Creation and Redemption (Nordland Pub. Co., Belmont, Masachusetts: 1976), pp. 81-91.
Here is a link to the article in PDF form
http://jbburnett.com/resources/florovsky/3/florovsky_3-4-darkness.pdf

Andreas Moran

23-01-2010, 12:00 AM

Evan

23-01-2010, 07:30 PM

Evan, you reminded me of my years back at school when I was obviously a "church girl" and every time there was a reportage on the news regarding the Church, then the next day I was expected to answer questions of my angry fellow students. The funny thing is that at the time i didn't watch at all television because I was studing hard for the National Exams and didn't want interruptions. So very often I had no clue what they were talking about ("Why the priest didn't baptise the baby of unmarried parents?" "What baby, what priest?" etc)

Nevertheless I had to defend my faith, or so I felt. Most of the times God provided me the right answers and my friends understood sth more about our faith. I wasn't that smart or well-informed to confront them so our Lord covered my weakness and made (I hope) sth good out of it. Perhaps you should leave it to Him. If He answers then all is good, if He doesn't then there is a reason for that and you will gain humility. Confronting a rather curious than caring audience with silence...it's a very interesting experience..!

In Christ
P

Thank you, Panayota. I have a very difficult time keeping silent, in any context, for any reason! Lord forgive me and help to do better.

As to the audience, I find it encouraging that people who otherwise show very little interest in matters of faith are moved by such events to turn their minds to God. To even ask the question "Where was God?" is to confront the possibility (for we Christians, the living reality) that God Is, and has a care for His creation.

In Christ,
Evan

David Hawthorne

24-01-2010, 03:49 AM

There is a sense in which the Fall was not 'real'; a thought which leads the person away from God is a fall. That is, evil is not existential. The devil is real enough but just as a certain disposition within the person attracts God's grace, so another disposition attracts the enmity of the devil.
Thank you for posting this, Rdr Andreas, this is really a thought-full response which begs for some meditation: "a thought which leads the person away from God is a fall."

Alice

24-01-2010, 10:48 AM

I have learned throughout my life in Orthodoxy that God allows all things to happen, good and bad. I have also heard that everything happens for a reason. God is omnipotent and is our Father. He knows our past, our present and our future.

Whether we see suffering in an individual (sickeness, financial struggling, marital or family problems, or in a society such as Haiti which has been devastated by a natural disaster), we should not question why God allowed it or judge in any way, but use it as an opportunity to please Him by being icons of His love in helping each other...

Today I was moved to tears here in Athens, because all the churches in my metropolis have been asked to collect a tray for these poor suffering and devastated people. I was even more moved that in the tray I saw more five, ten and twenty euro bills than coins (even though, unlike in the U.S., there are also two euro coins as well as the smaller denominations)...I was happy to have the opportunity to give again here, as I was in the United States...and that it has been made so easy. In the U.S. I was able to give to the Red Cross simply checking out my groceries at Costco..

What a beautiful thing to see the whole world come to the aid of their suffering brethren, with the realization that we are all responsible for one another and we are all sisters and brothers in Christ!!

My metropolis here in Greece will also be collecting bags of rice and pasta to be sent through a government agency for the people, who as my priest said 'are hungry and have no where to lay their heads'.

May our Lord have mercy on these people, bless those who are helping them in the trenches and in other ways, and through it may they and we all become better Christians. Amen.

In Christ,
Alice

Karl

15-06-2010, 02:45 PM

well i think its evident God's powers does create earthquakes check out thegreatearthquake(dot)com they have some spiritual stuff on earthquakes

Alice

11-11-2011, 01:05 PM

I wasn't trying to provide Pat Robertson statements. I think it's important, however, to look at this situation, if one chooses to look at it (prying into mysteries isn't always a great idea), in as broad a scope as possible. There appears to be a great disconnect between patristic Orthodox explanation of tragedy and that offered by others, like Pat Robertson--who should, anyway, be ignored. There are many reasons why suffering occurs, of course it's all because of sin. I don't ascribe guilt or judgment to Haitians or the victims of the tsunami any more than to rich Americans. I just find explanations of such events without reference to God to be disturbing, theologically, as if God were standing by, powerless to do anything.

Where I think that Pat Robertson is correct, is when he says that God turns away from man when there is great sin, especially (throughout history), in those places where people have been greatly cavorting with the devil through the diabolical black arts of witchcraft, voodoo, etc... It would make sense for God to turn away from those who prefer to literally worship the evil one instead of Him (no matter how they might cover it up by also having Christian items like icons surrounding their diabolical items intended for the destruction of men and women..something many of these people do.)

It is Orthodox to believe in Holy Protection, and I remember reading somewhere that before the fall of the Mother City, there was a vision vision of Panaghia withdrawing her veil of protection in Constantinople. There was ofcourse also the great vision of her putting her veil of protection in the 10th century over the church of Vlacharnae which we celebrate on the Orthodox calendar...

As for the fall of the Great City, I can't help but wonder if it is coincidental that it is a well known fact in Greece that the most practitioners of the black arts of magia (aka: witches) to this present day are those who came from Asia Minor? I don't think that any place where there is a great following of witchcraft and the occult will not feel God's withdrawal of protection somehow. Is it coincidental that the largest hub of the black arts (voodoo) in this country is in New Orleans? Didn't God say to Noah that if there were just a few more good people like him, he would not have sent the great flood?

So, while the rich American is indeed very sinful in ignoring God and pursuing money and luxury and hedonism, the difference, in my humble opinion, with the Haitian, or the Asia Minor Greek, or the New Orlean, etc., is not affluence vs. poverty, but that his community is not dabbling daily in the evil of witchcraft, which is nothing more and nothing less than satanism and the religion of the evil one.

A couple of months ago I read that a lynch mob in Haiti put some voodoo priests to death, blaming their suffering on their practice of voodoo!

May I humbly suggest that it is our responsibility as Christian parents, educators, priests, laymen, youth workers, etc. to inform our children about the grave dangers and sin of playing in the occult; the evil one's playing field. I remember playing with other Orthodox the oijuia board back in the 70's, when it was a popular item...and it really works in that the evil spirits work it. Thank God in Heaven for some Evangelicals I knew who warned me against it and other forms of the occult which seemed harmless to us at the time.

Kyrie Eleison.

Owen Jones

18-11-2011, 02:48 PM

I have not read every post on this topic but I think some clarity is called for. If we are to attribute the rising of the sun and the regular, reliable, dependable changes of the seasons to God's Providence, are we then to say that disruptions in nature have nothing whatsoever to do with God? God is somehow involved in everything. So we seek the meaning behind natural events. But these phenomena cannot be reduced to a propositional dogma. The thing to be gained from such speculation is spiritual knowledge and strength. If it makes us prideful and judgmental, or alone and helpless, then we have drawn the wrong conclusions from God's role in these events. It is no different than if someone gets a hideous, incurable disease, or if a good woman is raped and murdered. What role has God played in this? Can the evil be turned to good? Can faith grow in the context of the event, or is it demolished?

Finally, a word of clarification about powerlessness. The voluntary taking on of the mantel of powerlessness is perhaps the key Christian virtue that lies underneath, as the foundation of all other virtues. It is not an escape from responsibility (actually, responsibility is a secular term. The traditional, sacred term is duty). I do not have the power to overcome my sins or those of others. It is only Christ's power within me. That is why Christ admonishes us not to resist evil, meaning under our own steam. Because fighting evil will destroy us, because we inevitably become the evil we are trying to destroy. This is a principle not only at the personal but also at the societal level. So called "modern" societies are all organized around the principle that evil can be overcome through political activism. The active principle of practicing powerlessness is the key to salvation for the Christian. It is nothing like the fatalism found in other, especially "Eastern" religions, such as Karma.

Christ willingly became powerless on the Cross. The taunting was absolutely accurate, based on conventional opinion. If he truly were the Son of God, he could take himself down from the cross. But here is being revealed the true essence of Godliness that we are to imitate. We are to become powerless, just as Christ took on powerlessness on the cross. The result is a spiritual power that negates sin and death. Does this mean that we should make the science of seismology illegal because it attempts to better understand and anticipate earthquakes? Of course not. That would be an example of taking a spiritual principle and turning it into a fundamentalist creed.

Owen Jones

18-11-2011, 02:53 PM

Just as an addendum, the most powerful people, the most powerful influences in human history, and in our personal lives, should and do come from the people with the least power, in the conventional sense of the term. What does a monastic do first and foremost? He gives up power. He gives up the power that money provides. He gives up the power that striving for influence and economic and social respect provides. He gives up the feelings of power that sexual energy provides. He gives up every worldly temptation to become powerful. And the monastic way remains, for Orthodox people everywhere, the standard of life.

Forrest Slice

01-12-2011, 05:18 AM

Probably in another form, the question could be answered. I don't think God causes all earthquakes because there are some who stem from how people have changed their way of life making way for this natural occurrences to take place.

The world is changing and part of that is caused by man and how they go about with their daily life, which actually accounts for something.

Paul Cowan

01-12-2011, 05:34 AM

Are you saying man's daily life is causing earthquakes?

Rob Bergen

01-12-2011, 07:45 AM

True story,

My Uncle Bill once worked as an engineer for an oil company (who shall remain nameless) and was currently assigned to a drilling site in Switzerland. Now, as luck would have it, they were drilling particularly close to a fault line in the Earth's crust. Now, they were ordered by the government at the time to proceed with caution and at the slowest pace manageable. And for weeks all was well, until that fateful day. Now, my uncle is a swarthy fellow, brilliant engineer, who was skeptical of the whole project from the start. They had finally reached their target depth, and the oil began to flow. In fact, it was flowing too well, and the sudden change of pressure beneath the earth's curst caused a 5.5 earthquake to shatter through the country. Needless to say, the Swiss agreement with said oil company was terminated.

Uncle Bill caused an earthquake.

Paul Cowan

01-12-2011, 03:02 PM

Not to point a fine point on this Rob, but that is outside the "daily life" of man. That was a specificly focused event. I am talking more along the lines of the sham of global warming caused by all us humans exhaling carbon dioxide. Something we can't help but do simply to breathe. Everyday life of man does NOT cause harm to the earth. It is more resilient than the harm we can affect on her. Sure if we tap into the crust of the earth or try to regulate our atmosphere by "seeding" it to cause rain, we set up ourselves for doom. But everyday working people even in high rise buildings, cannot "harm" the earth or cause catastrophic events to occur.

Paul

Herman Blaydoe

01-12-2011, 04:05 PM

Everything we all do is, in fact, connected in some way. My actions affect other people. If I "sin", no matter how "innocuous" it may seem to me, affects in some, often intangible way, my relationship with my wife, my children, my friends ... My sin contributes to the fallen state of this world, in ways we are not aware of. Through the Church we work in symphonia with God to reclaim Creation and restore harmony, to create salvific beauty. We are either part of the solution or part of the problem, although some of us manage to be both at once.

Please let us NOT get into political diatribes or try to rehash the "global warming" debate, that simply has no place here.