Fasting and diabetes

[Theodora E.]

Does anyone have any online sources for fasting for diabetics?

I have an out-of-town friend who has only been Orthodox for several years. She is diabetic, and I am very concerned when I just learned that she is doing the full no meat/no dairy fast, apparently without talking to her doctor. She also hasn't had direct access to her priest for a while as he is ill.

Everything I read only has very brief mention that the fast is mitigated - or entirely done away with for diabetics. My priest tells diabetics they are not to fast (I know some diabetics will talk with their spiritual fathers and do such things as only drinking water, no other beverages, on fasting days and do other disciplines in place of the fasting they cannot do).

I'm just trying to do as much as I can at a great distance...Thank you for your assistance.

[Paul Cowan]

Fasting under special circumstances can be shifted to other things than food. The amount of secular entertainment, exercise, interacting with people, shopping etc...can all be used (with permission) in place of food. Surely there is another priest nearby who her priest will allow her to talk to since he is out of commission. My wife is diabetic and the fast does not apply for her. She is also very ill, and I ask your prayers.

Paul

[Kyrill Bolton]

I can only share my experience as a diabetic which is not to be taken as spiritual or medical advice. First I assume that you are talking about the abstaining from all foods and liquids for a period of time. (Abstaining from meats, dairy, etc. is difficult only to the extent of the struggle one undertakes and a diabetic can certainly partake of this type of fast.) Most diabetics that I know that are being careful will monitor their blood sugar periodically. The effect of a total fast on me (and probably most diabetics) is that the level of blood sugar decreases. Eventually if the sugars get low enough then the person will go into a diabetic shock or coma. I have no problem of fasting from midnight to the time of celebration of the communion and my blood sugar does not usually fall below 100 (which is basically considered normal.) As I attempt to fast for longer periods of time I am more careful to monitor the blood sugar (maybe every 3 of 4 hours.) For me if the blood sugar goes below 80 or certainly 75 I would break the fast. (I would also break the fast if I was feeling light head. BTW I would try to abstain from exercising as that will also decrease my blood sugar.)

Anyway when I feel that I have to break the fast I can raise my blood sugar temporarily by sucking on a hard candy. This will usually tide me over until the end of the fast and I feel that I have done my best and don't feel 'guilty.' Sometimes I feel that I have to completely break the fast to regain a feeling of stability.

I have been told by my doctor that periodically fasting for a day should not do any permanent harm or cause anything not reversible.

My problem in fasting is not my diabetes but my gluttonous sin nature.

Hope this helps some.

[Theodora E.]

Kyrill, I'm referring to the traditional Lenten fast, which is often heavy on the carbs, which as I understand it, is very bad for diabetics.

[Father David Moser]

Kyrill, I'm referring to the traditional Lenten fast, which is often heavy on the carbs, which as I understand it, is very bad for diabetics.

This is only the case if you let it be. There are plenty of foods out there to eat during the fast and yes, carbs are easy, but they aren't the best or only thing. I don't doubt that there are plenty of Vegan diabetics out there who routinely follow their meatless, dairyless diet with no ill effects. Its all about knowing what and how to eat properly. Devoting time and energy to shopping and cooking are also important changes that come about in Lent because in our society, it is not easy to cook without meat or milk and we get so wrapped up in the fast pace of life that we just eat what is easy, not what is good for us. Anyone with a dietary illness (such as diabetes) should consult with their dietitian or nutritionist to construct a lenten diet that will provide the necessary nutrition without compromising the health.

Fr David Moser

[Vasiliki D.]

I am Type I diabetic and have been for over 12 years now ... I hold all the fasts and can even hold an oil free day but under strict rules from my Spiritual father, in other words, I have tested how I will react and know at what point my sugar level will drop the next day so I have modified the fast as a result and ensure I eat something prior to the sugar falling ... however, if I feel weak on the oil free day i wont fast from oil ... that is done in humility to my Spiritual Father who has told me not to ignore the weaknesses of my body ... That is the point, each individual needs to get to know their body and how it reacts to their medication and different foods ...

No diabetic medication reacts in the same way for diabetics.

The other thing is non-diabetics just dont know what it is like to have Type I and often encourage us to do things that we are quite capable of achieving but we may be lazy or encourage us to do things that may not be good for our health ... the advise can go either way.

In my opinion, Theodora, I think you should just not interfere in your friends situation, no matter how well meaning you are - sorry.

It really annoys me when people get involved with other peoples illnesses and pass opinions (good or bad) on these when they are (a) not qualified medically and (b) not qualified spiritually.

I dont say that to be rude.

Every diabetic is different and every diabetic IS quite capable of holding the fast but they are not forced to ... that balance is a cross in itself and each individual has to take up that cross and work at it ... breaking the fast (for the sake of health) should be an exception and not the norm and the diabetic should be encouraged to hold a fast (in the long run) but only within the capabilities of each persons personality ...

The aim of each Orthodox who has an illnesses is to attempt the fast as honestly as they can, within their limits, but if their body is in need of a particular non-fasting food to show the appropriate humility as needed - not as the norm but as the exception ...

Most diabetis will discover this with time and in close co-operation with there spiritual father.

Any other interference is just that ... interference.

Sorry if I have repeated myself, the editing window is too small and I cant see all of my post :(

[Nina]

Dear Paul, my heartfelt prayers for dear Leah. God will take care of everything. Try to stay strong and not to worry.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I am a diabetic.

First of all it is important that the person wanting to fast speaks to his/her doctor.

There are a lot of factors to take into consideration here. How well is the blood sugar regulated? What kind of fast does the person want to undertake.

What is not a good idea is eating lots of bread etc. This is exactly what a lot of people do during the lenten period and it is a well known fact that most people put on weight during this period.

A diet rich in vegetables, pulses, fruit, etc. can only do good. Olive oil is allowed during the Lenten fast and this is also beneficial. Fish are allowed also. Beans and lentils do raise our blood sugar a little but you can have a small portion, especially since the benefits are so tremendous.

Something else that we need to be careful of is all processed foods. Last week my son bought a small plastic carton of taramosalata. This is a food that is especially popular during Lent. I was astounded when I read what was in it. Nothing pure at all! Home made taramosalata has 4-5 ingredients, the store bought stuff has food colouring, flavour enhancer, preservatives, etc. Diabetics have to avoid all processed foods. This is absolutely essential.

If a diabetic is careful then there is no danger that his or her health will be affected adversely.

My doctor often says that if everyone followed the Mediterranean diet the whole year there wouldn't be so many diabetics in the world.

During Lent we still follow the original/genuine Mediterranean diet but omit the weekly small portion of meat. Nothing easier.

Most diabetics are very knowledgeable about their condition and are careful of what they eat.

Of course, discussing this subject with our spiritual father is essential, especially if our health is not that good and we need to be extra careful.

Paul, all my prayers are with your good wife.

Effie

[Theodora E.]

Vasiliki, my friend has flat out told me that aside from taking her medication, she is *ignoring* her diabetes. That is what got me very concerned. She will not answer my questions on if she had talked to her doctor/nutritionist. If she had said she'd talked to her doctor, I wouldn't have said anything more. She hadn't even talked to her priest about diabetes and fasting *before* he became ill. She indicates she eats a very carb heavy diet.

If you consider urging someone relatively new to Orthodoxy to talk to their doctor and priest about a serious medical condition that can be impacted by their fasting interfering - well, we have different ideas on that.

[Mary]

Vasiliki, my friend has flat out told me that aside from taking her medication, she is *ignoring* her diabetes. That is what got me very concerned. She will not answer my questions on if she had talked to her doctor/nutritionist. If she had said she'd talked to her doctor, I wouldn't have said anything more. She hadn't even talked to her priest about diabetes and fasting *before* he became ill. She indicates she eats a very carb heavy diet.

If you consider urging someone relatively new to Orthodoxy to talk to their doctor and priest about a serious medical condition that can be impacted by their fasting interfering - well, we have different ideas on that.

If your friend is an adult, she is responsible for the decisions she makes, either good or bad. Show your concern by praying for her. Don't even tell her you're praying for her. The reason she isn't giving you an answer could be because she feels like you're interfering, and treating her like she's not smart enough to think and make decisions on her own. After all, it is her body, not yours. Usually, advice that is not asked for, feels like interference, even if it is full of love.

Even a mother, has to stop telling her own children what to do, when they're adults. If she doesn't stop, she's nagging. People need to make their own decisions, fail or succeed by themselves, and learn from their own experiences.

in Christ,
Mary.

Also, there are people who are allergic to gluten, dairy, nuts, fruits and vegetables all at the same time - to varying degrees. And then, they turned allergic to the few foods they could have, because there was no variety in their diet. So, out with rice and beans. Recently I read that some people are also becoming allergic to meat.

[Nina]

Ok friends, time to let you know that this friend has joined us here! :) Please welcome her when you see her. Barbara W. She needs our love and support and help since we all have so many questions and this forum is so great when our dear priests and SFs are busy (but of course this forum is not a substitute for pastoral advise). Barbara has been Orthodox for a couple of years and I have learned so much from her. She has a lot of Orthodox love we can learn from her. :)

[Vasiliki D.]

If your friend is an adult, she is responsible for the decisions she makes, either good or bad. Show your concern by praying for her. Don't even tell her you're praying for her. The reason she isn't giving you an answer could be because she feels like you're interfering, and treating her like she's not smart enough to think and make decisions on her own. After all, it is her body, not yours. Usually, advice that is not asked for, feels like interference, even if it is full of love.

Even a mother, has to stop telling her own children what to do, when they're adults. If she doesn't stop, she's nagging. People need to make their own decisions, fail or succeed by themselves, and learn from their own experiences.

in Christ,
Mary.

Also, there are people who are allergic to gluten, dairy, nuts, fruits and vegetables all at the same time - to varying degrees. And then, they turned allergic to the few foods they could have, because there was no variety in their diet. So, out with rice and beans. Recently I read that some people are also becoming allergic to meat.

Mary has hit the nail on the head ... that is why I apologised to you in my original post.

AS a diabetic, I have experienced it from the diabetics side and so I can relate very well to your friend without knowing a single thing about her. We have well meaning people in our lives who annoy us with advise for precisely the reasons that Mary has described.

The truth of the matter is when you are not controlling your diabetes, it is a heavy physcological and spiritual burden that we are all acutely aware of. It is bad enough carrying the guilt of knowing you are not looking after yourself without having other people constantly highlight it for you ... It impacts you physically and emotionally!

I have an aunty who (despite I have been diabetic for 12 years) sees me 2 times a year and each time "monitors" what I eat and will "tell me" things like, "should you eat that?" "that has sugar" ..etc. I spend 2 hours with her and after those two hours I am emotionally drained as I can feel her "eyes" following my every movement ...

Diabetics have to deal with that quite regularly so on the odd occassion, yes, we have well meaning friends but because we are carrying the weight of this emotionally draining approach we are a lot more sensitive than most people.

Try to understand it from our point of view ...

The advise about prayer is excellent ... I wish more people would pray for me rather than "telling me off" as they "think" they see my world but they dont.

Theodora, you are very sweet btw ... I like you heaps and I know your heart is pure and right. I only replied the way I did because I know how your friend is seeing things and I can either give you advise on what to say but I know she will reject you since we (diabetics) have similar reactions to how people approach us.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I cringe when I remember the way I tried to control my mother's diet when she was here on holiday in the past. She has been a diabetic now for over 40 years and her last tests proved that, in spite of her age and her diabetic condition, she is very healthy.

As I am now a diabetic myself I realize how totally inappropriate it is when we tell others what they should or shouldn't do. I only wish I could control myself as strictly as I tried to control my mother so many years ago!!!! And now, of course, the shoe is on the other foot. I get really irritated when my son tells me that what I am eating (and enjoying) is forbidden.

I believe that Theodora is worried about her friend and is just trying to help. One of the hardest lessons in life is realizing that each person is responsible for his own life. Especially those in our family whom we love.

As Vasiliki so wisely pointed out, prayer is the solution. Prayer is so unbelievably powerful when it is true and full of love and respect for our fellowman.

Effie

[David Robles]

I discovered that I am a diabetic last summer. I was expecting it because of my family history. I have the distinct blessing of having a quite exotic collection of illnesses;
Asthma
Hypothyroidism
Severe Obstructive Sleep Apnea
Parkinsonism
Permanent neurological damage due to Guilliain-Barre
Chronic Heart Disease- high blood pressure, 2 heart attacks and 5 stents
multiple areas of demielinization in the brain- cause unknown
and a few other minor ailments
My doctor asked; "Why aren't you depressed, I would expect you to be!" I said "I believe in God"
Diabetes type 2, unfortunately, has brought me over the top and I am having a tough time dealing with all of this.
My doctor wants me having some protein every other day, at least. He suggested egg whites or milk.
My priests feels it would be better if I have fish instead. For me fish is almost like having meat and initially I prefered to have egg whites which seem to be a minor deviation from the fast. I realize that in the order of fasting, fish is eaten before eggs and dairy. So I will be eating fish except on Wed and Fri.
I can't help feeling a sense of spiritual loss. I think Vassiliki has a very positive and sensible outlook. I wish I could be as upbeat as she is. Elder Porphyrios had many health problems and lived in joy in the presence of Christ. I need to learn his secret :-)

[Effie Ganatsios]

I discovered that I am a diabetic last summer. I was expecting it because of my family history. I have the distinct blessing of having a quite exotic collection of illnesses;
Asthma
Hypothyroidism
Severe Obstructive Sleep Apnea
Parkinsonism
Permanent neurological damage due to Guilliain-Barre
Chronic Heart Disease- high blood pressure, 2 heart attacks and 5 stents
multiple areas of demielinization in the brain- cause unknown
and a few other minor ailments
My doctor asked; "Why aren't you depressed, I would expect you to be!" I said "I believe in God"
Diabetes type 2, unfortunately, has brought me over the top and I am having a tough time dealing with all of this.
My doctor wants me having some protein every other day, at least. He suggested egg whites or milk.
My priests feels it would be better if I have fish instead. For me fish is almost like having meat and initially I prefered to have egg whites which seem to be a minor deviation from the fast. I realize that in the order of fasting, fish is eaten before eggs and dairy. So I will be eating fish except on Wed and Fri.
I can't help feeling a sense of spiritual loss. I think Vassiliki has a very positive and sensible outlook. I wish I could be as upbeat as she is. Elder Porphyrios had many health problems and lived in joy in the presence of Christ. I need to learn his secret :-)

David, Hi!

I don't like to give advice to people but perhaps, as you are a "new diabetic" my experience might help you in some way.

First and foremost live your faith every day. God is with you and He is with me and everyone else on this planet.

When I was first diagnosed with diabetes I read and studied everything I could about it. I am a walking encyclopedia concerning just about everything to do with diabetes. I receive regular newsletters with the latest developments, etc. The trouble is that doctors change their minds about diabetes every 10 years or so.

When I was first diagnosed my doctor told me that the first year diabetics are very careful and do exactly what their doctor tells them to.
After this only a few follow their doctor's instructions. I have found this to be true in my own case.

My way of coping is to know what foods affect my blood sugar and to try and get some exercise every day. Whether that is housework, gardening or walking varies from day to day.

The thing that has helped me the most though is to totally live in the present. Jesus told us this but we just don't want to hear. We think that by worrying about the future we will somehow be "safe".

Leave everything in God's hands. The Lenten period is not just about fasting, it is about so much more. Enjoy each day, enjoy your family and friends, give thanks to the Lord for everything that happens to you during your day.

I read an English medical report a couple of years ago that found that we have all become hypochondriacs mainly because of the TV. If you are like me and millions of other people, each time the symptoms of various diseases are discussed during the plethora of "medical" programmes we now have, you come to the conclusion that you have them all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When a person is first diagnosed with diabetes the doctors give you so many medical tests that you can be sure that you are quite healthy.
I assume that you have gone through this yourself.

God created my body and it has its own system of healing whatever goes wrong. I put my trust in Him and do (or try to do) whatever I need to to help the work my body does.

As for "a feeling of spiritual loss" because you are unable to keep a strict fast, why not speak with your spritual father about this. I am sure that he will tell you that fasting from food is not the only way to fast.

The above things are just my own way of coping with this condition. I hope that you will find something beneficial in them, although we each follow our own path in everything we do. As we should.

Effie

[Alice]

The thing that has helped me the most though is to totally live in the present. Jesus told us this but we just don't want to hear. We think that by worrying about the future we will somehow be "safe".


Thank you for reminding us of this great spiritual wisdom, dear Effie.

It is a hard thing to do; I don't know if it is society ('you must save money; you must do this for your health; you must do that for your health; you must do this for your children'; etc.) or if it is how the human psyche is wired (or a little bit of both), but this is very hard to do sometimes.

We must indeed thank God for the day, trust in Him, pray for our and our family's concerns and needs ofcourse, and not worry too much about tomorrow. Take each day at a time in all things.

"The Son of Man has no where to lay His head"...According to the Orthodox Study Bible: "Do not put your hopes in the *security* of the world, but in God"

Ofcourse, that goes against everything American, and increasingly other societies, brainwash us with.

May God bless us all...

With much respect and love in Christ,
Alice

[Mary]

I can't help feeling a sense of spiritual loss. I think Vassiliki has a very positive and sensible outlook. I wish I could be as upbeat as she is. Elder Porphyrios had many health problems and lived in joy in the presence of Christ. I need to learn his secret :-)

There are two sides to every coin. Fasting helps us in many ways. But it can also be harmful to our spiritual life. For instance - the better and better we get at it, it may lead to pride. Like different talents, it may be something that is very easy for one, while it is very difficult for another. So, we might secretly judge another, who isn't as able. So, the restrictions we face, all work together for our greatest spiritual gain.

For example, I love going to church. I love all the services. If we lived near a monastery, I'd show up at every service. Going to church and attending services is a good thing, but for me it isn't. For me, it provides an escape from the responsibilities I have at home. If I do not love my own family, by serving and loving them wholeheartedly, then is my presence in church acceptable to God? So there are 'restrictions' placed on me - till I learn to love and serve another with no thought to myself, I will not be 'allowed' to be in church 24/7.

Please don't quote me on this. I'm just trying to look at things from a different angle. I may be right, or not. At our home, we're still trying to figure out this fasting thing. If left to myself, I can fast at full speed. I have no health issues and I love all kinds of food, so I can pig out on anything and won't give a second thought to what I can't eat. But that's not the point of fasting. If there is no peace in our home, there will be much resentment and bitterness breeding, in place of some spiritual goodness. So, the needs of my family, place 'restrictions' on my fasting, and the question becomes: Am I willing to be restricted?

I read a story about a young man who wanted to become a monk and during his talk with the abbot, told the abbot that he could already do a 1000 prostrations a day, and he was willing to do more. The abbot, knowing that it was pride that was fueling his spiritual exercise, told him he only needed to do 10. And the man who could do a 1000, was totally unable to do 10. ( I've got a sickening feeling that I've totally mangled the story. Hope someone else knows it better than I do!)

in Christ,
Mary.

[David Robles]

I read an English medical report a couple of years ago that found that we have all become hypochondriacs mainly because of the TV. If you are like me and millions of other people, each time the symptoms of various diseases are discussed during the plethora of "medical" programmes we now have, you come to the conclusion that you have them all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Effie
Hello Effie:
I just wanted to maybe inform you that my illnesses are not imagined but very real. I often end up in an emergency room and have been hospitalized and taken to surgery on the spot. And it is my doctor who says I have these things. I wish my problem was as simple as hypochondria but it is not. To me all of this is just part of getting old. And I know illness is a blessing and can teach me humility if I accept it with thanksgiving.
I absolutely agree with you on the fact that fasting includes more than food. We can abstain from many things, entertainment, going places, talking on the phone, judging our brother, anger, idle speech, gossip, buying unnecessary things etc. I am doing what I'm doing with the blessing of my spiritual father but I can still sense a 'spiritual' difference between my previous way of fasting and this fast. I guess I have a little fear that I will not grow spiritually because I can not fast as usual. I try to overcome this by reminding myself that obedience to my spiritual father will prevent me from harm.

Thankls

[Nina]

"Fasting was devised in order to humble the body. If, therefore, my body is already in a state of humbleness and illness or weakness, the person ought to partake of as much as he or she may wish and be able to get along with food and drink (Canon 8 of St. Timothy of Alexandria, 381)."

[Alice]

This is a great quote, Nina...
Thank you for finding it and sharing it with us!

[David Robles]

Thank you Nina! I do not think that this canon allows me to go out and have a steak during the fast though. Granted I'm ill, very ill. In my case a little bit of fish here and there is enough to carry me through the fast. I have the blessing of my father confessor. The good thing about this canon is that it takes away any preoccupation I may have had about not being able to fast like everybody else.
Thanks again!

[Alice]

Dear David,

There are probably more people out there who, just like you, have received the blessing for a relaxed Fast for health reasons, than you think! Most are probably just keeping silent about it so as not to scandalize anybody.

My prayers for your health,
Alice

[Nina]

The good thing about this canon is that it takes away any preoccupation I may have had about not being able to fast like everybody else.


:) That was my purpose. :) Thank God.

[Vasiliki D.]

I thank God Nina posted that Canon as it puts many things in perspective ... provided we have the blessing of our Spiritual Father it makes sense that we eat what we must because our bodies are already under active humility and obedience outside of the fasting periods.

I was thinking, the root word for the fast in the Greek us "Nusteuo". We discussed this at our fellowship a few weeks ago and Sotiri (our fellowship leader who is a truly Byzantine mind) reminded us that this word strictly means "abstinence" or abstaining from eating ... so, fasting strictly is more about quantity than the quality. So, someone with a medical illness who is required to have some fish, for example, could perhaps limit the portions of food that they eat in the day during the Great Lent ... ?

[Nina]

I thank God Nina posted that Canon as it puts many things in perspective

How many Thanksgiving Akathists did you make until now in gratefulness that I exist to post quotes for you? :P lol :P


I was thinking, the root word for the fast in the Greek us "Nusteuo". We discussed this at our fellowship a few weeks ago and Sotiri (our fellowship leader who is a truly Byzantine mind) reminded us that this word strictly means "abstinence" or abstaining from eating ... so, fasting strictly is more about quantity than the quality. So, someone with a medical illness who is required to have some fish, for example, could perhaps limit the portions of food that they eat in the day during the Great Lent ... ?Now seriously. Thank you for emphasizing this since not only we can reduce the food intake, but abstain from other things we enjoy during Lent... :( although I am not so good at abstaining from things I enjoy :(

[Vasiliki D.]

How many Thanksgiving Akathists did you make until now in gratefulness that I exist to post quotes for you? :P lol :P
Now seriously. Thank you for emphasizing this since not only we can reduce the food intake, but abstain from other things we enjoy during Lent... :( although I am not so good at abstaining from things I enjoy :(

I have to be careful with what I just said before as I am not posting on behalf of the Church but merely reflecting as is everyone else ... nusteuo broken down is abtaining from eating, however, that does not mean that we ignore any prescribed fasting rules that the Church has laid down since this particular Canon ... I guess when it comes down to it, what I was trying to say (and not very well) is that since a person with an illness is required to humble their body throughout the entire year and not just during the fasts, they can find comfort in knowing that whilest they might have to have some milk or fish during the fast they can limit the portion (size and quantity) of what they are eating so that they are eating out of obedience rather than indulgence (mmmm, I am allowed to have milk so I will drink plenty of it)!

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