Anti-semitism

[James M.]

I thought I saw somewhere on the net a reference to an encyclical which either apologized to the Jews on behalf of the Orthodox Churches for past persecutions, or said that these persecutions were wrong or something to that effect. The report dated this from sometime in the 17th century. This would have been very progressive for that era. I can't seem to re-find this, and am now wondering whether I simply hallucinated. Can anyone help me out here? I know that today all of the focus seems to be between Christianity and Islam, but I'd appreciate if someone could help me out with this more ancient issue.

In Christ,
James

[James M.]

Closest I can find is a reference to an encyclical by Ecumenical Patriarch Metrophanes III (1520-1580) where he responds to pleas of the Jewish residents abused in Crete. The response is suggest to represent official condemnation of anti-semitism, although the cited text seems to be more generic. Curious whether anyone knows more.

[Scott Pierson]

Have the Jews ever issued an offical apology for persecution of Christians ? Or for the crucifixion of Christ and the stoneing of apostles , saints, etc.** People outside the Church are always demanding that we apologize for every supposed wrong commited by self professed Christians throughout history. Of course Christians are never really persecuted (because they are always the bad guys ) and no one ever owes them an apology. Or if they are persecuted it could "never equal the horrible suffering that Jewish people have gone through.. . ". I'm sure the people who lived through the soviet gulags didnt really suffer that much, or the people slaughtered by the turks, stoned by the Jews, or martyred by the pagan romans, etc.

I guess I would have nothing against someone simply saying " we apologize if anyone Christian or calling themselves Christian has ever commited an unwarrented act of agression against Jews". In fact I think that could even be a noble thing to do, but it always goes beyond that to a big "I'm sorry we even exist the Church is so evil and every Jew is oh so innocent and you folks suffer so much because we are so evil... etc." type thing.

sorry about the rant this topic just made me think of this.

** Please note I wouldnt expect them to its just interesting to look at these things in reverse and see how silly they are. And If you say "well that was just some of the Jewish leadership who called for his death a long time ago they have no need to apologize for that now.." . then wouldnt that same logic require you to say that modern Christians dont need to apologize for the persecutions (both imagined and real) of Jews by those claiming the title of Christian in the past ?

[Jennifer]

Dear Scott and others,

You ask some pertinent questions about the value of these types of large-scale apologies for crimes that were committed long ago.

Sometimes, I wonder if apologies are more for the benefit of the offended or for the offender. At times, a person who has wronged another will apologize and then continue to do the same wrongs; that doesn't seem beneficial to anyone, and it certainly is not true repentance. Oppositely, if a person truly repents and never harms their neighbor again; is it necessary to make an apology?

I think, in the case of large-scale crimes that show hatred toward an entire group of people, that an apology is fitting. Because these types of crimes are directed not at a single person but an entire group, the feeling of being hated that the victims experienced is passed onto future generations. An apology from the offending group of people, along with true repentance, can do much to alleviate on-going tension. The offending group must also be committed to not teaching their children to hate. I was impressed recently when I heard that Germany had made public their records of Jews who had been persecuted in the Holocaust. In this case, the Germans are not trying to hide the wrong that was done by the Third Reich. Instead, they are being open about it, which will prevent people from denying that it ever happened and give the families of victims a chance to learn what happened to their loved ones.

But, this topic brings up a question that I have. I had not realized that the Orthodox Church and its people had participated in persecution of Jews. I had not realized either that anti-semitism had been strong among Orthodox people. I know this can be a delicate topic, but have parts of the Orthodox Church carried feelings of anti-semitism? If so, it would be important to me to know that we had at least acknowledged that it was wrong.

Jennifer

[Mrs Irene]

I was impressed recently when I heard that Germany had made public their records of Jews who had been persecuted in the Holocaust. In this case, the Germans are not trying to hide the wrong that was done by the Third Reich. Instead, they are being open about it, which will prevent people from denying that it ever happened and give the families of victims a chance to learn what happened to their loved ones.

I hadn't heard this, that is good, it must be extremely painful to the Jewish people to have their suffering denied.

But, this topic brings up a question that I have. I had not realized that the Orthodox Church and its people had participated in persecution of Jews. I had not realized either that anti-semitism had been strong among Orthodox people. I know this can be a delicate topic, but have parts of the Orthodox Church carried feelings of anti-semitism? If so, it would be important to me to know that we had at least acknowledged that it was wrong.
Jennifer

I have never heard of Orthodox people persecuting the Jewish. I had only heard some old Orthodox people on occasions complain that we always hear about the Jewish suffering during the war and never about the suffering and slaughter of the Russian Orthodox people at the same time.

It leaves a nasty feeling to think that Orthodox people could have participated in persecutions of anyone, but when you think about it, being baptised Orthodox, calling yourself Orthodox, doesn't make you truly Orthodox unless you live the life, learn the humility and learn to love your enemy as yourself, so no one that was truly Orthodox would have done this. That is how I comfort myself. Still I am feeling sad about it all.

In Christ
irene

[Scott Pierson]

There have been cases of Orthodox Christians committing violence against Jewish civilians on occasion.** The progroms. Generally they occurred when revolutionary’s would attack a czar or government official and the local population would become enraged and they would go to a Jewish area and riot or whatnot.***


** Just as instances of Jews attacking or persecuting Christians also takes place. Just as feelings of anti christianism have existed in Jewish communities ( the scribes and Pharisees being a good example ).

*** Because of the perception that Jews were disproportionaly involved in revolutionary movements ( often true ) the people would target the Jews and unfortunatly inoccent people would get hurt. Of course the fact that a jewish person does something wrong doesnt give anyone the right to randomly attack innocent jewish people.

[Scott Pierson]

"I think, in the case of large-scale crimes that show hatred toward an entire group of people, that an apology is fitting. Because these types of crimes are directed not at a single person but an entire group, the feeling of being hated that the victims experienced is passed onto future generations"

I can see what your saying. I think its not so much the fact that an apology might be given that makes me angy so much as the bagage and often the nature or wording of the apologies. Even more iratating is the fact that people demand apologies from the Church and make the Church out to be the bad guy and themselves to be the eternal victim.

[Ryan]

During the Russian civil war, the White army was certainly responsible for a number of pogroms. Of course most of the factions were commiting atrocities of one sort or another.

[Mrs Irene]

I recently watched a documentary on the Spanish Inquisition, thinking, "how stupid were these "Christians", forcing people to convert and then wondering why they kept up their Jewish religious rituals in secret". Having no idea that we had shameful acts in our past as well.

If you could have designed anything to purposely make people want to hate a religion then persecution and forced conversions, doing evil in the name of religion is perfect. It is annoying, it is so frustrating. But it is no good thinking about "but the Jews did this and the Muslims did that" etc.... All the more we should be following the opposite course, the correct course, showing love to people who don't know love. Kindness in a world that sometimes seems completely cruel.

I don't know anything about the Amish people, but their recent acts of forgiveness were inspiring, truly Christian, from what I saw on the news.

There have been cases of Orthodox Christians committing violence against Jewish civilians on occasion.** The progroms. Generally they occurred when revolutionary’s would attack a czar or government official and the local population would become enraged and they would go to a Jewish area and riot or whatnot.***

Stirring up anger and revenge, must have been very sweet to the evil one. :(

** Just as instances of Jews attacking or persecuting Christians also takes place. Just as feelings of anti christianism have existed in Jewish communities ( the scribes and Pharisees being a good example ).

*** Because of the perception that Jews were disproportionaly involved in revolutionary movements ( often true ) the people would target the Jews and unfortunatly inoccent people would get hurt. Of course the fact that a jewish person does something wrong doesnt give anyone the right to randomly attack innocent jewish people.

Well not for Christians who should be turning the other cheek.

[Peter Farrington]

I am not sure that I can consider there is any excuse at any time for anti-semitism among Christians. Perhaps some political objection to aspects of Israeli policy but never anti-semitism.

If a Jewish community did ever harbour anti-Christian sentiments then surely the Christian response is love and kindness, never riot, rape and pillage.

Unfortunately Orthodoxy is not immune from the atrocities that other Christian communities have committed. We should repent as far as is within our personal scope and certainly not justify any such violence.

Peter

[Scott Pierson]

I recently watched a documentary on the Spanish Inquisition, thinking, "how stupid were these "Christians", forcing people to convert and then wondering why they kept up their Jewish religious rituals in secret". Having no idea that we had shameful acts in our past as well.

If you could have designed anything to purposely make people want to hate a religion then persecution and forced conversions, doing evil in the name of religion is perfect. It is annoying, it is so frustrating. But it is no good thinking about "but the Jews did this and the Muslims did that" etc.... All the more we should be following the opposite course, the correct course, showing love to people who don't know love. Kindness in a world that sometimes seems completely cruel.

I don't know anything about the Amish people, but their recent acts of forgiveness were inspiring, truly Christian, from what I saw on the news.

Yeah. Your right on with the amish too that was awsome how they even attended the funeral of the killer and consoled his mother and wife.

[Scott Pierson]

I am not sure that I can consider there is any excuse at any time for anti-semitism among Christians.

Nor for anti Christianism among Jews. But I guess being Christians we need to worry about our own actions first and foremost.

[Peter Farrington]

While Christians have a history of anti-semitism I do not see that the Jews have any history after 70AD-ish of anti-Christianity. Or rather though they may not like Christians they have not been in a position to do anything about it.

'Christians' have routinely abused Jews and treated them terribly. Personally I think that they have plenty of justification for anti-Christianism.

We need to show that we have changed.

Peter

[Mrs Irene]

There is a lecture/essay entitled "THE JEWISH QUESTION IN THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH" "ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH." in four parts by Gregory Benevitch who says in part....

"Being a Jew myself I see no other way for me to be reconciled with God than to be an Orthodox Christian, which does not mean of cause that I allow any attempt to accuse Jews of killing Christ. I repeat once more: it is one thing to say with our Holy Fathers: Jews killed Christ, it is another thing to say that they are guilty. The one statement is true, the another - false, if only we believe that Christ is God."

****************
and also on anti-semantic comments by Church Fathers.........

"Since we believe that saints, convicting somebody, hated the sin and the devil, not the sinners, we may apply their words when the same sin is committed today. It is precisely on the ground of dispassionate character of the Fathers' words that their truth does not vanish with time."

**************

Russia, communism and the rejection of Christ.......

".......... the greatest wound in Russian history is Communism. And the fact is, many Jews played an active role in the Revolution. I clearly remember that as recently as ten years ago, my Jewish relatives proudly declared that the Russian Revolution was created by Jews. Of course, that is an exaggeration, but we must have it in mind that if the Jews themselves were(and are) saying such things, it is not surprising that some Russian Orthodox would say the same thing."

"We must also take into account the fact that the Communist Revolution was atheistic - that it was not only opposed to the bourgeoisie, but to the Church as well. Moreover, millions of those who were killed in the labour camps during the Russian Revolution were Christians(though not all of them, of course). Russian clergymen and monks were the first martyrs in the atheistic revolution. Already in the late thirties and especially after the war the situation radically changed and Jews themselves became the victims of Stalin's camps. But immediately after the revolution emancipated Jews, Jews who abandoned their own tradition, were the most valuable agents in the Communist attempts to destroy the Church. Fr. Alexander Men (jewish convert to Orthodoxy)once said: "When a Jew betrays his dedication to God he betrays himself and easily finds himself in the power of dark forces. Being chosen is a great and terrible responsibility.(Vestnik RHD 117, 1976 p 113).""

"As for Judaism, it rejects Christ who has already come, it does not acknowledge Him, which means, that it does not believe in Him. This is something different from the faith of the righteous of the Old Testament. Now, since Judaism has rejected Christ, it has closed the way to God for the Jewish people which adhere to this religion. Nevertheless, being a religion, it was obliged to lead to some god. And being the religion of the Absolute God, it was obliged to lead to the Absolute God, to the only true one. However, this god could not be true God of the Jewish faith (before Christ). He was something else, an absolutely false god created within the Judaism."

"....... in the New Testament, we find ......... Christ praying to his Father to forgive his killers. How can we still speak about the guilt of the killers of Christ, if he himself has forgiven them?"

"Moreover, such Orthodox Fathers as St.Maximus the Confessor teach that Christ has voluntary chosen his Cross and has been crucified to save those who has killed him, as well as all humanity."

*********

Jewish converts to Orthodox Christianity...........

"But what is really interesting: the Orthodox Fathers' attitude towards Jews does not at all frighten those Jews who become Orthodox Christians in Russia, does not prevent them from becoming Christians. Yes, being a Jew one cannot be pleased by these words of the Christian Fathers, but who ever said and when was it ever said that Christianity was established to bring us pleasure. Christianity does bring us pleasure, but a spiritual one, nevertheless, it demands from us something: to hate one's "soul in this world"(Jn.12.25), which is not a pleasant exercise."

"The Russian Orthodox Church should teach her members that ........ We have no right to blame any nation, any race. Our enemies are not flesh and blood, but the evil spirits. It is not only the "Western world" which lies in evil. "Russian world", lies in evil either. Or, better, as our Church teaches, the whole world, "world" as such lies in evil. Yet, she teaches that Christ has vanquished the world."

"There is only one place for each nation, for each race where it may find peace, where it may become itself, where it may be cured. This place is the Church, the one Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, God's beloved Israel. If only one man from some race comes to the Church, it means that all his race comes to the Church, being in him. For our nation (or race) is in us. Only in the Church we can be cured from the painful divisions of our humanity, these divisions between nations and races which are described in the story about the tower of Babylon. It is only the one Catholic Apostolic Church, where the event of Pentecost, in which every nation and race is called to participate in God's Covenant, has beeen never stopped since the time of the Apostles."

The full essay can be read here if you are interested.

[Rdr Kris]

I had not realized that the Orthodox Church and its people had participated in persecution of Jews. I had not realized either that anti-semitism had been strong among Orthodox people. I know this can be a delicate topic, but have parts of the Orthodox Church carried feelings of anti-semitism?

Hi,

The Church Herself has never been, and cannot ever be, anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitism is a sin; the Church, as the Body of Christ, cannot sin.

Many Church Fathers said things that might be anti-Judaism (just as they criticise the pagans, Muslims, etc.), but I have yet to see any instance of anti-Semtitism.

However, no individual within the Church is sinless or infallible, and there have been many an anti-Semite within the Church. The Slavic world has for a long time been extremely anti-Semtitic; even at the time when most of its inhabitans were Orthodox Christians. Hence the enormous amount of Jewish emmigrants fleeing to Israel; not to mention the large Jewish support (and leadership) for the Communist Revolution.

It's a clear sign that humanity (Jews included) are still inperfect and fallen; very much in need of Christ.

In XC,
Kris

[Scott Pierson]

The Slavic world has for a long time been extremely anti-Semtitic; even at the time when most of its inhabitans were Orthodox Christians. Hence the enormous amount of Jewish emmigrants fleeing to Israel; not to mention the large Jewish support (and leadership) for the Communist Revolution.

Many people try to use that as an excuse for the Jews* who worked to destroy Holy Russia.. that they were just innocent sufferers of the evil of anti Semitism and couldn’t help but embrace satanic revolutionary (or I guess as the liberals would say "noble and enlightened" ) ideologies.. I don’t buy that though.

Its strange when Orthodox take that view though. Its like they automatically hold their own people to be in the wrong and the followers of an opposed religion (the religion of the Pharisees) to be the innocent ones. Many people have a real guilt problem due to media brainwashing.

As for the Slavic world being "anti Semitic" I cant agree with that. Anti talmudic Judaism sure but I don’t think any specifically racial hatred of Jews was ever any sort of majority view. The educational / media establishment in the west loves slandering traditional cultures especially ones that dare to have an Orthodox monarchy. If people find out that Russia was not as evil as they lead on they might start to question the superiority of democracy and secularism and they cant let that happen.

I really recomend the book " The Third Rome: Holy Russia, Tsarism and Orthodoxy" by Matthew Raphael. It has some good information on this topic. It really opened my eyes to a lot of things.

*I'm sure many of the Jewish converts to Orthodoxy supported the Tsar and even gave their life for Holy Russia. I'm talking specifically about the followers of Talmudic Judaism and atheistic Jews.

[John Charmley]

I get a little worried at times. It was the Tsarist secret police which forged the Protocols of the Elders of Zion; it was Russian pogroms which drove waves of Jews to Europe and America in the late 19th century and the early 20th century. It was common practice in Athens on Good Friday in the 19th century to attack Jewish premises after the Liturgy had finished. The people who did these things called themselves Orthodox Christians. Of course the Church was not anti-semitic, but nor is there much of a record in the 19th century of its Greek or Russian branches doing much to restrain the anti-semites.

Equally worrying is what strikes me as euphemistic language about the Jewish involvement in the Russian revolution, and excuses such as it was 'anti-Judaism' not anti-semitism; just what might the difference be? Lenin was not a Jew, and Stalin had attended a seminary, whilst the vast majority of Bolsheviks had been brought up in Holy Mother Russia where the Church played such a predominant role; so quite what point is being made in singling out a few Jewish people, I should like to know?

To deny that there has been an unpleasant undertone of anti-semitism in old Russia and old Greece, as in Romania, Hungary, France, Germany, Poland, and even Great Britain, does no service to us as Christians. We can chop logic and we can try to score points, but if you look at something like Bill Rubinstein's book
http://www.amazon.com/Genocide-Willi.../dp/0582506018

you'll get a better and more balanced picture. And yes, before anyone asks, he is Jewish - would that be an issue for anyone?

Its strange when Orthodox take that view though. Its like they automatically hold their own people to be in the wrong and the followers of an opposed religion (the religion of the Pharisees) to be the innocent ones. Many people have a real guilt problem due to media brainwashing.

This is not a matter of holding Orthodox people to be automatically wrong, nor of 'media brainwashing', it is a matter of historical record. As Christians we have sinned, and if we have repented, we should be honest about the history of Christian anti-semitism, not try to make excuses for it.

To say, 'the Church did not condone it' is to beg the question of what the Church is. There are too many examples of individual local anti-semitism to make such an argument anything more than an excuse.

By all means bury our heads in the excuses our traditions offer, and we can join those Turks who deny they slaughtered Orthodox Christians, and those neo-Nazis who argue about the size of the gas chambers and the number of the slain, and those Britons who argue they did not invent concentration camps, or those Americans who can't quite bring themselves to explain what happened to the Cherokee, and argue that slavery wasn't all that bad. Yes, they all use a familiar arsenal of arguments - but I should not wish Christians to be with them.

No one is saying that every Orthodox Christian in Russia was anti-semitic, just that there were so many and so severe pogroms that Jews fled in their tens of thousands. Are we supposed to believe that the Tsar and the Church hierarchy were unaware of these things - or that their condemnation of them have been conveniently forgotten by historians?

No, it would be more fitting before God and the memory of the slaughtered to bow our heads and be silent - except for our prayers for the souls of the departed.

In Christ,

John

[Scott Pierson]

o quite what point is being made in singling out a few Jewish people, I should like to know?

The same reason for single out "Christians" for various evil such as the progroms.

[Peter Farrington]

Hi Scott

Are you saying that Christians are not responsible for a great deal of violence over the years? Not least Eastern Orthodox, as well as Anglicans and Roman Catholics?

I am not sure why you are so hesitant to condemn the pogroms and other anti-semitic actions of Christians over the years? I think I have misunderstood something along the way.

Are you saying that you think that in some way they were justified?

Peter

[John Charmley]

The same reason for single out "Christians" for various evil such as the progroms.

Dear Scott,

An eye for an eye was not what Our Lord taught us, nor is it what the Church preaches.

Whilst history is disfigured by some ghastly examples of man's inhumanity to man, the nature of what happened to the Jews of Europe between 1940 and 1945 stands out for its barbarity; that is one of the reasons it behoves all of us to be very careful in our discussions of it. I am unaware of Jews treating Christians in the manner the Nazis treated them. Nor can I find record of Jewish pogroms against the Orthodox.

But, as I say, that is not why it is distasteful to logic chop on this topic. Christ calls us to repentance, and even if it were the case that one could compile some ghastly equation which revealed that Christians and Jews were equally guilty of crimes against each other, such a calculus would be irrelevant as well as wrong. Saying 'they did it to us too', is not a Christian way of proceeding.

What is the problem here? Why the difficulty in admitting the crimes committed by those calling themselves Christians? That puts anyone who does it on a par with those Turks who wanted to try the Nobel prize winning Turkish author, Orhan Pamuk, who would not go along with the line that there was no Armenian genocide.

Are we not called to the highest standards, and should we not admit when our co-religionists in the past sinned? Why the unwillingness to admit what is in the historical record? It isn't part of some anti-Christian conspiracy; indeed, it is the unwillingness to face up to such things that brings Christians into disrepute.

I cannot apologise for the sins of others, but I can admit them, and pray for those who have been slaughtered; just as I pray for those who did the slaughtering. But to equivocate here is, surely, not the Christian thing to do.

I sense Peter and I are treading on some sensitivities here, and I am sorry if anyone is offended; but I am even sorrier that anyone would be offended.


In Christ,

JOhn